Proof that there is no god [Archive] - Gamers.org Community Forums

pcfreak

May 10th, 2006, 04:27 am

mandrake

May 10th, 2006, 07:43 am

Universe inside of an atom?
Did you steal that from Men in Black?

Circlebreaker

May 10th, 2006, 12:24 pm

Meh, like HexSys said, they're a crackpot cult. Kinda like Scientologists but even crazier.

pcfreak

May 10th, 2006, 12:31 pm

yeah I did some reading up on them after I made that post. And they really are crackpot!! :yes: :yes: :wtf: :wtf: Their leader sounds like he has a good business head on him!! I liked the beliefs they have about sex :thumbup: (lots of it!!) but they really are weird and wacky peeps!! Seems the leader done a bunk from his home country of france and set up shopin canada, bet they are loving him!!

marapet

May 11th, 2006, 02:49 pm

there is no god... only god i believe in is my mum

kukipett

June 23rd, 2006, 06:58 pm

As infinity has no start and no end it can't be located. So there is still a risk that earth is located right in God a$$ hole. This would not surprise me when i look at the way things are going on in this world!!

NeedForPower

June 24th, 2006, 05:15 am

If there is no god how were the molecules and stuff for the big bang to occur created? How does everything on our planet work so perfectly? How is it that our planet is one of a kind and we have seen no other like ours?

OK so most idiot scientist and such think we evolved from monkeys right? Well when a species evolves there are no more of the species. So if we did evolve from monkeys why is it there are still monkeys on Earth?

How does our galaxy work so perfectly, if it was created on accident? How does every substance we know of work? How is it such complex organisms such as ourselves exist, our bodies work, our eyes are extrememly complex and they work... How is it these things could be created by the "Big Bang".

And if the universe was created by a big bang, how is it Earth ended up in the perfect place for having humans? If you read up on it they say Earth is in the only spot in the galaxy that can support life. And there are no stars nearby. Anywhere else our plant would burn up and we wouldnt be here.

SO doesnt all that suggest a creator, and not a accident?

As I stated above. What created the matter necessary for the big bang? What created the matter to create the matter for the Big Bang?

And to kukipett our planet is getting trashed because of idiots, terrorists, and pollution.

So to me its obvious there is a creator, and the reason I think so many people deny that, is because if there is a creator and a heaven and a hell. They are going to end up in hell.

I suggest to all of you to watch the movie "The Privileged Planet"

pcfreak

June 24th, 2006, 05:41 am

If there is a god may he strike me down now...............

waiting.......................

still waiting...................

getting bored.............

aw sod it I'm off for a pint!!!!!!

see proof of gods non-existance!!
:thumbup: :thumbup:

bmn

June 24th, 2006, 05:50 am

You can't disprove that there's a God. Fortunately, you don't need to. As Cloudw4lker is apt to quote, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The proof offered above is subjective, i.e. I can't say "that's true" or "that's false", only "I agree" or "I disagree". And subjective proofs aren't proof at all.

pcfreak

June 24th, 2006, 06:06 am

BMN it was a joke.........chill out fella!!

NeedForPower

June 24th, 2006, 06:23 am

To the members of the forum... I am sad to say... One of my closest friends you know as HexSys has passed away... No apparent cause of death...

pcfreak

June 24th, 2006, 06:45 am

hey did you know they have broadband in hell :D: :D:

bmn

June 24th, 2006, 08:23 am

BMN it was a joke.........chill out fella!!
Wasn't responding to you, my reply was directed at NeedForPower. My apologies if I didn't make that clear. :):

pcfreak

June 24th, 2006, 09:11 am

no apologies needed fella.......crossed wires!!
thanks,
Stuart

NeedForPower

June 24th, 2006, 09:27 am

I said you were dead dude....

bmn

June 24th, 2006, 12:50 pm

If there is no god how were the molecules and stuff for the big bang to occur created? How does everything on our planet work so perfectly? How is it that our planet is one of a kind and we have seen no other like ours?

Because the universe is a darn big place and in terms of planets we can barely see past our own front door...

And if it hadn't been just right to sustain human life, we would not be alive to think about it. What about Venus, eh? Mars, Jupiter? Great job God did on Pluto too.

OK so most idiot scientist and such think we evolved from monkeys right? Well when a species evolves there are no more of the species. So if we did evolve from monkeys why is it there are still monkeys on Earth?

That is actually an oversimplification of evolution and totally wrong. Learn something about what you are attacking before attacking it next time. And you are denying an almost irrefutable similarity between apes and humans, not to mention the fact that evolution has been demonstrated (though not on such a large scale) in the real world, not just theory.

How does our galaxy work so perfectly, if it was created on accident? How does every substance we know of work? How is it such complex organisms such as ourselves exist, our bodies work, our eyes are extrememly complex and they work... How is it these things could be created by the "Big Bang".

We were not created by the big bang; evolution did that over literally millions of years. Get your science straight if you want to start denouncing science. Anyway, we evolved to fit the way our planet works, like a glove molding itself onto a hand -- that's why everything's so peachy when it comes to survival in an oxygen atmosphere.

And if the universe was created by a big bang, how is it Earth ended up in the perfect place for having humans? If you read up on it they say Earth is in the only spot in the galaxy that can support life.

That we know of. And again, we can't see much.
And there are no stars nearby. Anywhere else our plant would burn up and we wouldnt be here.

And thus, we would never have been able to evolve to have this discussion. We are really just here because of blind luck. By the way, Sun = Star, in case you skipped that class.

SO doesnt all that suggest a creator, and not a accident?

No, because for every Earthlike planet there are uninhabitable pieces of trash like Venus, Mercury and the rest, and also whole solar systems that probably don't have life. We are only able to talk about it just because the conditions have been so finely balanced.

As I stated above. What created the matter necessary for the big bang? What created the matter to create the matter for the Big Bang?

Well, for a Christian God that's irrelevant, but there is a newer theory out that states that the big bang is just one of many; explode, collaspse, repeat. :):

So to me its obvious there is a creator, and the reason I think so many people deny that, is because if there is a creator and a heaven and a hell. They are going to end up in hell.

Hah! If living my life with what "God" "gave" me is so wrong, why did he give it to me in the first place? If we are his "Children", is he not a very bad parent?

pcfreak

June 24th, 2006, 01:17 pm

i am dead geeza, like i said they have broadband here in hell :D:

bmn

June 24th, 2006, 01:32 pm

i am dead geeza, like i said they have broadband here in hell :D:
Then where does that place me if I'm on dialup?

:scared:

Phone(6644)

June 25th, 2006, 07:27 am

maybe its just like dante's inferno,

in level 1 (limbo) you still have broadband but without p2p

As you progress for being a sinner you can only get off peak bb on a 256 connection

Down the spiral you go for worse terestrial behaviour, and your on 56k dial up that disconnects all the time.

The further you go the more virus dialers you get, dialing premium lines

until you eventually reach hell's Cocytus, where all internet access consists of it working for a few mins then giving you a "No dial tone" message.

Why not take the test Click Me (http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv) to see where you are in Dante's vision

Ps "If evolution is the key to our world; yeast replicates the time on earth from early creatures to now, every day. So how come its still yeast?" :wink:

Rob

June 25th, 2006, 11:10 am

maybe its just like dante's inferno,

in level 1 (limbo) you still have broadband but without p2p

As you progress for being a sinner you can only get off peak bb on a 256 connection

Down the spiral you go for worse terestrial behaviour, and your on 56k dial up that disconnects all the time.

The further you go the more virus dialers you get, dialing premium lines

until you eventually reach hell's Cocytus, where all internet access consists of it working for a few mins then giving you a "No dial tone" message.

Why not take the test Click Me to see where you are in Dante's vision

Ps "If evolution is the key to our world; yeast replicates the time on earth from early creatures to now, every day. So how come its still yeast?"

Could be worse, they could just give you AOL.

mandrake

June 25th, 2006, 03:21 pm

Then where does that place me if I'm on dialup?

Purgatory?

Cloudw4lker

June 25th, 2006, 05:46 pm

Ps "If evolution is the key to our world; yeast replicates the time on earth from early creatures to now, every day. So how come its still yeast?" Evolving doesn't *mean* it disappears, that's how things can split off etc. It can dissappear but it doesn't have to.

And I got level 7, did it almost a year ago :p:

bmn

June 25th, 2006, 06:22 pm

Yah, evolution occurs in two ways:

1): Necessity. As perfectly demonstrated by the Peppered moth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth), a species which has a short breeding cycle can adapt to a suddenly hostile environment.

2): Genetic drift, also known as mutation. If a species develops a mutation which enhances its ability to survive, it is more likely to reproduce and thus pass on its mutated genes. Note that nowhere in this process does the older species die out. Also note that, in the case of yeast, there are over one-thousand types... so saying that it hasn't evolved doesn't really seem to be a valid point. Also note that yeast could have been the genetic ancestor of many mushrooms we see today. :): :read:

Kingfisher

June 26th, 2006, 01:04 pm

Yah, evolution occurs in two ways:
1): Necessity. As perfectly demonstrated by the Peppered moth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth), a species which has a short breeding cycle can adapt to a suddenly hostile environment.

This is microevolution. It is change that occurs by recessive traits (traits already contained in the species' DNA) becoming dominant. Observable in nature and not disputed. By anyone. Ever.

2): Genetic drift, also known as mutation. If a species develops a mutation which enhances its ability to survive, it is more likely to reproduce and thus pass on its mutated genes. Note that nowhere in this process does the older species die out. Also note that, in the case of yeast, there are over one-thousand types... so saying that it hasn't evolved doesn't really seem to be a valid point. Also note that yeast could have been the genetic ancestor of many mushrooms we see today. :): :read:
This is macroevolution. Change that occurs when new information is added to a DNA strand. In great dispute. The rate of beneficial mutation is approximately 1 in 10,000. We're to believe that evolution has generated us from simple life forms by somehow ignoring the detrimental effects of the 999 bad mutations while allowing the single good mutation to enhance the organism?

The argument is Macroevolution, but whenever evidence is presented, it's always evidence for Microevolution (such as the peppered moth). Please provide an example of any evolutionary change where NEW information has been added to a DNA strand, and not simply existant information becoming dominant.

And if you want another exercise in fun, please explain the mechanism whereas we went from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction...

OmegaBob

June 26th, 2006, 01:16 pm

That dude (at least someone by the same screename) posted the same ramblings over @ AVF a while back.

And now, after checking out the site, I wish to thank him! I didn't know there were seminars and such! Excellent!

I'm going to attend and try to pick up chicks!

Thank you Rael! My "special" DNA thanks you as well!

Hellooooo Nurse! Ahem.... I mean...
Hellooooo hot Raelian chicks (http://www.rael.org/e107_plugins/raelmeetfriends/testimonials.php)
(and guys, for those who like em like that!)

wooo!

bmn

June 26th, 2006, 08:10 pm

This is microevolution. It is change that occurs by recessive traits (traits already contained in the species' DNA) becoming dominant. Observable in nature and not disputed. By anyone. Ever.
Actually, there really are some christian crackpots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Wells) who have disputed this, it's just that they didn't do a very good job. :p:

This is macroevolution. Change that occurs when new information is added to a DNA strand. In great dispute. The rate of beneficial mutation is approximately 1 in 10,000. We're to believe that evolution has generated us from simple life forms by somehow ignoring the detrimental effects of the 999 bad mutations while allowing the single good mutation to enhance the organism?

OK now, hear me out. One mutation in 10,000, right? Well, with a couple thousand organisms (and you know there were way more than that) you could see a change in just a few centuries. With the billions of amoebas swarming around in the primordial ooze, this change could have occured in literally a few years. The timescale here is just huge, far bigger than can be easily comprehended.

You also seem to have forgotten a process known as natural selection, whereby the harmful mutations would be eliminated (and 1 in 10,000? Where did you get this?) and the beneficial mutation rewarded. It's a very simple process: if the organism can survive, it thrives and passes along its genes.

The argument is Macroevolution, but whenever evidence is presented, it's always evidence for Microevolution (such as the peppered moth). Please provide an example of any evolutionary change where NEW information has been added to a DNA strand, and not simply existant information becoming dominant.

Microevolution and macroevolution are actually pretty much the same process. The actual physical process is as follows:

(These are facts, not theory.)
During DNA replication, (necessary for reproduction) there is a copying error. Sometimes a G ends up as an A, or a C turns into a B. This causes a slight genetic change within the organism.

If the change increases the organism's probability of survival, natural selection dictates that it passes along its genes and has children, which develop the same mutation and possibly others.

Now, what is important here is that mutation does not know what it's doing. How can you state that yes, it occurs when a species must change the color of its skin, but becomes skittish somewhere else? And just how do you explain that apes and humans share 98% of their genome? And that we actually have fish DNA?

I would encourage you to read the 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/), and if you are unsatisfied, the creationist rebuttal (http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1a.asp) and the rebuttal to the rebuttal (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html)

You see, one of the fundamental problems with creationist reasoning is that its conclusions aren't based on any facts whatsoever. It's like saying "The human genome is exceptionally complex, and we aren't entirely sure where it came from. Therefore, an invisible, all-powerful being must have created us. Obvious, really."

NeedForPower

June 26th, 2006, 08:35 pm

You know bmn you seem to be against whatever anyone says here. Perhaps you are god and that is why?

bmn

June 26th, 2006, 10:34 pm

Could be; it makes about as much sense as any other creationist argument.

Phone(6644)

June 27th, 2006, 07:29 pm

You see, one of the fundamental problems with creationist reasoning is that its conclusions aren't based on any facts whatsoever. It's like saying "The human genome is exceptionally complex, and we aren't entirely sure where it came from. Therefore, an invisible, all-powerful being must have created us. Obvious, really."

And science is only fact until someone proves otherwise like Mr S Hawkins in "im Wrong" Shocker (http://space.com/news/hawking_bet_040716.html)

Dont know why we dont all admitt it, we cant prove / disprove anything because we just dont know enough when we start using 90% of our brain, maybe we will.

bmn

June 27th, 2006, 08:07 pm

"If you thought that science was certain — well, that is just an error on your part."

Richard Feynman

This does not equate the fact-based science with the totally unfounded creationism.

RangerRick

June 27th, 2006, 08:22 pm

"If you thought that science was certain — well, that is just an error on your part."

Richard Feynman

This does not equate the fact-based science with the totally unfounded creationism.

There is no proof of that. Just because science says something does not make it fact. Facts can be made to look how one wants them to look.

Science at one time thought the world was flat. Science at one time thought everything revovled around the Earth. That was proven not to be true.

It's really funny, because your 'God' is science as proven by your 'belief of it's absolute.

Terry Penrod

June 27th, 2006, 09:09 pm

.

Both religion and science share the exact same end - the pursuit of an ellusive, ultimate truth in attempting to answer the most compelling questions mankind has yet thought to ask. All other questions and answers are subsets thereof and most (albeit useful) are trivial by comparison.

The difference to me is that science readily accepts, even embraces changes to facts as new discoveries are made and it constantly tests itself for accuracy and relevance. Conversely, religion (although also relevant to our lives) takes a very quick shortcut straight to the very end of what may be for all we know an endless process of seeking knowledge and learning from mistakes.

In other words, one claims infallibility from the very outset and the other does not.

Science, as practiced by the best people with the very best minds ever produced, is always humble in the way it never asserts to know the final answers to the ultimate questions. All it does is take decisive baby steps toward a greater understanding of ourselves, of nature and of the universe in which we reside.

To me, a "true" scientist is a great deal more honest in the way he views these questions than any religious pundit who claims to actually know with absolute certainty the answers. An uncorrupt scientist IMO is therefore far more worthy of praise in his much more patient and honest pursuit of the final truth.

Cheers, Terry

bmn

June 27th, 2006, 09:14 pm

There is no proof of that. Just because science says something does not make it fact. Facts can be made to look how one wants them to look.
Perhaps you didn't read the above quote properly.

"If you thought that science was certain — well, that is just an error on your part."

Richard Feynman

Second, I did not say that science was fact. Read the post. I said that it was fact-based. There's a huge difference there.

Science at one time thought the world was flat. Science at one time thought everything revovled around the Earth. That was proven not to be true.
If you call the church science, then yes, this is true.
What I think that you're trying to say, though, is that science is fallible. Yes it is. And that is a good thing. If you stick to the same theory and never change it, even when the facts no longer support it, you aren't looking for the truth. You're only looking for the truth you want to see.

It's really funny, because your 'God' is science as proven by your 'belief of it's absolute.
My belief is not absolute. Unlike many creationists, I understand the facts which support the theory of evolution. I have seen the relevant facts, and I came to my own conclusion based on the available data. I did this before the creationists came into the picture and said "but what if you put an invisible, all powerful being in?"

Creationists do not seek the truth. Their beliefs are unchangable, because they've deluded themselves, lied to themselves, until they can't even see that those same beliefs are absolute 100% speculation, not supported by any facts whatsoever.

EDIT: Awesome post, Terry. Agree 100%.

RangerRick

June 27th, 2006, 10:40 pm

Creationists do not seek the truth. Their beliefs are unchangable, because they've deluded themselves, lied to themselves, until they can't even see that those same beliefs are absolute 100% speculation, not supported by any facts whatsoever.

And I suppose what you see is the truth? Again, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. You're only looking for the truth you want to see(to quote you).

Ther's a saying, "facts are facts", but doesn't make something true.

"If you call the church science, then yes, this is true."

Where did I imply that???? I was stating something that that was thought to be 'fact' at that time. That was not 'church science'.
Those were only 2 points about what was thought to be fact at the time.

bmn

June 27th, 2006, 10:54 pm

And I suppose what you see is the truth? Again, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. You're only looking for the truth you want to see(to quote you).

What I see is the most logical interpretation of the available facts. I have NEVER claimed that it is the truth.

"If you call the church science, then yes, this is true."

Where did I imply that???? I was stating something that that was thought to be 'fact' at that time. That was not 'church science'.

I guess you've forgotten Galileo again. Remember him? He was called a heretic by the church for telling the truth. The source of the 'sun revolving around the earth' argument was actually the Bible, and religious fanatics continued to defend it even after evidence to the contrary had been produced. Attempting to call that science is a mockery.

And to this day, there are religious cults which believe the Earth is flat.

RangerRick

June 27th, 2006, 11:04 pm

I guess you've forgotten Galileo again. Remember him? He was called a heretic by the church for telling the truth. The source of the 'sun revolving around the earth' argument was actually the Bible, and religious fanatics continued to defend it even after evidence to the contrary had been produced. Attempting to call that science is a mockery.

And to this day, there are religious cults which believe the Earth is flat.

I had 2 examples there, and there are others that can be brought up, but you had to bring mention of the church in the one example. The 'church' is not the only religion, and not the only religion that believes in 'God'.

My bringing up those are only 2 examples of what was at the time thought to be 'fact'.

bmn

June 27th, 2006, 11:33 pm

What exactly is your point? All of this points to the fallibility of science, which, as I have stated, is a good thing.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

Charles Darwin

EDIT: For all you creationist lunatics: Read This (http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/wackononsense.pdf) and feel foolish. :):

Terry Penrod

June 28th, 2006, 12:20 am

.

Hey guys, a lot of VERY weird, superstitous ideas were widely believed and taken as absolute fact before the Age of Enlightenment / Age of Reason. That is why times past are called the Dark Ages.

Some people have truly moved on and others have not. Some still cling very tightly to what are now archaic concepts. However, most people in modernized countries these days just adhere to the basic premises of God's creation and an afterlife but at least they also admit that gravity exists, the earth is round and it revolves around the sun.

What I find odd though is that the roots of virtually all major religions today can still be traced all the way back to the Dark Ages, when most admit mankind was quite ignorant. The explanation is simple though. The very same problems inherent to people then exist today, as does the innate fear of the unknown.

Religion still addresses these very same, very common human needs - therefore it still thrives today. NOT because it is a reflection of our best thinking or even an honest pursuit of the truth by average minds. It satisfies a fundamental need shared by the majority of all people and for many all over the world it works.

It works in a very personal way and in a social way that connects people through a common belief in something that is frankly better than we all know we are. In a word, it offers hope in an often hopeless life. In that way I am glad religion still exists. Otherwise I would see no further purpose for its existence now that we have begun a much more enlightened path in this Age of Reason.

Cheers, Terry

mandrake

July 5th, 2006, 10:07 pm

EDIT: For all you creationist lunatics: Read This (http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/wackononsense.pdf) and feel foolish. :):

I only feel foolish because I think my IQ dropped by a few points for having read that insanely biased article.

I may as well have made the statement

"For all you evolutionist morons, read Genesis 1-3 and feel stupid."

Terry Penrod

July 5th, 2006, 11:01 pm

.

I only feel foolish because I think my IQ dropped by a few points for having read that insanely biased article.

I may as well have made the statement

"For all you evolutionist morons, read Genesis 1-3 and feel stupid."

Nonsense Mandrake.

That article didn't come close to being biased. It was well researched, well reasoned and well written.

How anyone could read that piece and come away thinking it was the equivalent of perusing relevent portions of The Bible as a sole source of information on this subject is beyond me.

It serves as an intelligent, fairminded counter-argument to 15 of the most oft raised complaints by creationists about The Theory of Evolution, mutation, natural selection and other well established scientific facts in their relentlessly desperate (and I must say altogether ignorant) attempts to discredit the legitimate scientific community.

They are the ones who consistently demonstrate exceedingly large amounts of unmitigated bias and IMO, every single one of them is an utter fool.

Cheers, Terry

bmn

July 5th, 2006, 11:59 pm

mandrake, why not just leave faith as faith? You have no proof whatsoever of God. If you accept that, then you have faith. If you try to rationalize this, tie it into facts, it doesn't work. There is simply no single shred of evidence pointing to the existence of any god whatsoever.

This does not mean that you can't believe in God. It merely means that you can't try to force your beliefs upon others or disguise them as science and teach them in schools. Those with enough faith in the unknown and unknowable will find a way to religion. Those who insist on theories supported by facts will not. Leave religion out of schools unless it is part of cultural education. It has no place among physics or chemistry. It is an abstract concept created by humans to answer a question which cannot be answered. It has a place among philosophy, not real science.

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 12:28 am

.

I agree 100% BMN but wanted to make it clear that I see no conflict whatsoever between the basic belief in a single, sentient creator and any of the scientific theories covered in that article.

Evolution does not even address the questions of where life first began or how the universe was formed, let alone what if anything follows life after death. Science is NOT a replacement for religion and anybody who sees it that way is just plain blinded by a closed-minded, faith-based belief and they are being defensive out of irrational fear.

The reason that so many religious zealots feel threatened by science and react this way is attributable to their own ignorance and nothing more.

Cheers, Terry

Gary V.

July 6th, 2006, 12:50 am

I would be impressed by all the smart guys here, except I think the really smart people in the world don't have time to try to convince others there is no God on a gaming website.

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 01:12 am

.

I would be impressed by all the smart guys here, except I think the really smart people in the world don't have time to try to convince others there is no God on a gaming website.

Beats me what being smart and being too busy to post on game forums have to do with one another. Matter of fact, the dumbest people I know don't even have a web connection or a PC. They don't play interactive games either. But many of them sure are busy eking out a meager living working long hours at really crappy jobs, getting blind drunk every weekend and otherwise wasting away in front of the boobtube.

Oh, most of them can also be predictably found in church every Sunday morning singing hymns (badly) and worshipping a make belief invisible man in the sky

Cheers, Terry

bmn

July 6th, 2006, 01:35 am

Who's trying to convince whom that there is no god? Only this Raelian spammer, who clearly went off the deep end a while ago. :p: The only thing I've tried to convince anyone of is that

A: Absolutely no evidence points to the idea that we were designed by a sentient being

B: Far more evidence than any other theory can claim supports the theory of evolution.

And C: Creationism is a pseudoscience which should never be taught in schools.

I don't really see anything that isn't objective in those points, though some might take issue with the last point, despite the fact that it is accurate.

Tom Servo

July 6th, 2006, 02:48 am

If God didn't guide our species perfectly 6000 years ago, then what other perfect created my perfect body, with about 500 mutations in it, and my lovely vestigial organs?

Oh, and put those vestigial legs in whales, because God's just messin with us! You Evolutionists, flying lizards millions of years ago? God's messin witih you!

Gary V.

July 6th, 2006, 03:21 am

.

Beats me what being smart and being too busy to post on game forums have to do with one another. Matter of fact, the dumbest people I know don't even have a web connection or a PC. They don't play interactive games either. But many of them sure are busy eking out a meager living working long hours at really crappy jobs, getting blind drunk every weekend and otherwise wasting away in front of the boobtube.

Oh, most of them can also be predictably found in church every Sunday morning singing hymns (badly) and worshipping a make belief invisible man in the sky

Cheers, Terry
What a noble person you are, Mr. Penrod, to try your best to shake the faith of others. I don't understand the purpose of those who try to convince others there is no God. However, those who try to convince others that there is a God are, in many cases, attempting to broaden the kingdom of heaven. Additionally, most people need to believe in God more than anything in life. Perhaps they have lost a child and the prospect of never seeing him again is softened by the belief that they will see their child in heaven.

I expect there may be a few people reading this debate who are on the fence in their belief. They may need to believe, but also see the posts proclaiming there is no God. Posts which seem very intelligent. Maybe, with some luck, you and the others will shatter someone's faith; something they may need in the future or need now to get through tough times. Man, I would not want that on my head.

All I know is, a person has absolutely nothing to lose by believing in God and Jesus. If they don't exist, well, I have at least been comforted thinking a wonderful being who loves me is out there. If God does exist, however, I get eternal life in heaven. I hope there's some kind of second chance for those who got it wrong in this life, but I'm afraid there probably isn't.

pcfreak

July 6th, 2006, 01:50 pm

Tom Servo

July 6th, 2006, 03:24 pm

All cats have 4 legs, but not all 4 legged animals are cats.

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 04:56 pm

.

What a noble person you are, Mr. Penrod, to try your best to shake the faith of others. I don't understand the purpose of those who try to convince others there is no God. However, those who try to convince others that there is a God are, in many cases, attempting to broaden the kingdom of heaven. Additionally, most people need to believe in God more than anything in life. Perhaps they have lost a child and the prospect of never seeing him again is softened by the belief that they will see their child in heaven.

I expect there may be a few people reading this debate who are on the fence in their belief. They may need to believe, but also see the posts proclaiming there is no God. Posts which seem very intelligent. Maybe, with some luck, you and the others will shatter someone's faith; something they may need in the future or need now to get through tough times. Man, I would not want that on my head.

All I know is, a person has absolutely nothing to lose by believing in God and Jesus. If they don't exist, well, I have at least been comforted thinking a wonderful being who loves me is out there. If God does exist, however, I get eternal life in heaven. I hope there's some kind of second chance for those who got it wrong in this life, but I'm afraid there probably isn't.

It is not my intention to shake anyone's faith in God or convince anybody of anything Gary. I would sincerely hope that if someone reading this thread already believes in a supreme creator that his or her faith is strong enough to withstand a simple forum exchange.

I would also hope that the people here are intelligent enough to debate things like the Theory of Evolution without falling into the same trap that most aggressive, reactionary creationists commonly do in blindly, ignorantly attacking science because they wrongly feel threatened by it.

Those people are zealots and zealotry is an ugly thing that brings out the very worst in human beings. It never results in an honest pursuit of the unbiased truth either. Instead, zealotry instills irrational fear, it blinds people to all other possibilities, it stops honest debate dead in its tracks and it often begets extreme violence.

That aside, I want to respond to the three primary ideas you have used in your above reply.

First is nobility. It is a rare human trait that has nothing to do with a person's ability to discern for themselves whether or not they believe in God or in an afterlife. I aspire to attain that admirable trait but like most people, it has escaped my grasp so far. Few ever achieve it because most never even try to embrace it.

Second is faith, which is also a human trait that can be applied to many common things separately from any religious beliefs. It is Blind Faith that leads to radical zealotry and that is where many of our real problems begin. Defending it is simply wrongheaded.

Third and last is personal loss, also something all human beings share, regardless of whether they worship a supreme being or not. How they choose to deal with that loss is entirely their own business and they don't need total strangers constantly trying to convince them that blind faith in God and a belief in the afterlife is any better than facing the sometimes harsh realities of life head on.

If you want to believe in God on a personal level, that's really none of my business nor my concern. But when legitimate scientific institutions are aggressively attacked in a concerted, persistent attempt to publically promote religious diatribe at the expense of hard-earned human knowledge, then it becomes my concern. It also becomes my responsibility to stand up for science as it is the true unbiased path to discovery and enlightenment. Without it, we are doomed to whither away in stifling ignorance, stuck forever in the Dark Ages.

Cheers, Terry

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Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 05:40 pm

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Terry, that post was rubbish pal!!! You have placed a stereotype on the working class and it is very wrong!! Just because someone is in a crap job doesn't make them stupid, and not all working class people are drunk believers. I come from a working class background and find the comments you have made offensive and pompous!! Also, are you saying that only intelligent people play interactive games and have access to the net? Because, if so you have really got to take a reality check my friend!! Get off your soapbox fella!!! :mad: :mad:

Please spare me the over-emotional kneejerk rants HexSys.

My comments were in direct response to Gary's tritely acerbic assertion that "the really smart people in the world don't have time to try to convince others there is no God on a gaming website."

In order to illustrate that nobody should make such ridiculously biased blanket claims, I wrote that the dumbest people I know do not play interactive games nor post on web forums nor in most cases even own PCs. They can easily afford at least a basic set-up too but they have no interest and yes, most of them do exactly what I said they do. They are stuck in crappy, unchallenging jobs and lead very predictable lives. Almost every single one goes to church every Sunday and many of them are weekend drunks. Having come from meager beginnings like yourself and currently living in the heart of the Bible Belt, I know dozens of them, don't you?

Now, a person's native intelligence has nothing to do with whether he or she has a PC or plays games or posts on web forums. That much is perfectly clear. But most of the really smart people I know (including both the youngest and oldest) do have PCs and web connections these days. That's because they have become the primary tool for work, study and communication around the world. As a result, many people (of all intellectual levels) have also discovered interactive games as a fascinating new form of recreation.

So yes, many smart people do play games and even smarter ones play and create those games. Some even design the operating systems used as platforms for games (amongst many other things) and make fortunes in the process.

Do some of them also post on game forums? You bet they do. But like BMN and myself, their purpose is NOT to convince anyone that God does or doesn't exist. When pressed however, some of us will defend rational thought, logic, science and the unbiased pursuit of honest answers to honest questions.

Cheers, Terry

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 08:03 pm

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All cats have 4 legs, but not all 4 legged animals are cats.

No Tom, not all cats have four legs.

Some are born with fewer and even a few are born with more.

Cats, like all other creatures with legs can also lose them a variety of ways over the course of their lives. So far as we know, they like us however cannot spontaneously regenerate them - no matter how hard we pray.

But as veterinary medicine has advanced through scientific research, we have developed a number of methods to help aid animals who have for some reason lost or injured their limbs. The same "miracle" has become commonplace for human beings who suffer from a wide spectrum of ailments.

Praying for miracles only helps those who do the praying for others. It does not actually help those who need assistance the most. Although it can provide some hope and temporary solace to the victims themselves - in what is essentially a selfish act of desperation. Nevertheless, if praying helps ease their pain in any way and renders them more able to endure a while longer, I'm all for it.

Doctors however can and do help these people in very meaningful, measurable ways all over the world every single day and it is doctors who are the leading practioneers of science, not cultism or spiritualism or any other form of religious belief.

Oh, btw, I know several doctors and other very smart people here in Houston who love interactive games. I don't know offhand how many also post on related web forums. But literally all of them have PCs with Internet connections and most all of them are using those tools regularly in their practices, for professional collaboration and in ongoing educational studies.

Three in particular (oddly, all women) I can attest to though. One who was head of the world renowned MD Anderson Cancer Research Center until she retired recently. You see, she married my best friend, who is also one of my closest longtime business associates. It was she who first introduced her husband (and myself) to interactive PC games and game forums. Mostly she plays complex turn-based strategies, classic-style RPGs and the more difficult puzzle-oriented adventures. But lately she has also discovered that shooters can be fun once in a while too.

The second is head of Rice University's wonderful Center For Technology in Teaching and Learning (CTTL). She is a doctor of education, a scientist and on the very cutting edge of all efforts to integrate these great new tools into the whole educational process. I have worked on several episodes of her first two award-winning, interactive, web-based educational games (now approved in all 50 states) and both she and her full-time staff are all avid gamers in their private lives. They are online a lot too and I suspect many of them post on game forums.

The third is the wife of my own business partner. She is the Director of Astonomy at the Houston Museum of Natural Science, who has been instrumental in promoting a variety of new-age teaching methods including Imax Theaters, online educational extensions, interactive touch-screen kiosks, cost-efficient portable planetariums / display domes for bringing science to the less privileged masses, the foundation of NASA's Discovery Centers and a number of other very helpful things. A widely recognized scientist and author with several doctoral degrees, both she and her husband also play games.

So when someone says that all of the world's truly smart people are just too busy to play games, etc., they honestly don't know what they're talking about.

Cheers, Terry

Gary V.

July 6th, 2006, 08:22 pm

In Terry's defense, he responded to a remark I made which I knew would illicite some sort of heated reply. In true form, Terry's response to a firecracker was a nuclear strike.

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 09:15 pm

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In Terry's defense, he responded to a remark I made which I knew would illicite some sort of heated reply. In true form, Terry's response to a firecracker was a nuclear strike.

Not a nuclear strike Gary, just a larger firecracker with some colorful, extra pyrotechnics.

Seriously though, this subject always sparks the tempers of "true believers" and I really do think it brings out the very worst in people (them in particular).

Conversely, as a lifelong agnostic and pragmatist, my initial approach to religious topics is never emotional or biased. My responses to heated personal attacks and insulting kneejerk rants however are.

That having been said, I also wanted to mention that as a very strong supporter of equal indivdual rights, I defend believers with the same zeal I defend non-believers as far as their personal freedoms go. But in recent years we have seen increasingly spiteful and even lethal attacks by ultra aggressive religious groups of all types.

Some are relatively benign and others represent what I see as a genuine threat to world peace. In between we have some less violent but highly vocal creationsists who have been speading a bunch of total garbage far and wide. They constantly, relentlessly assail the fundamental principles of legitimate science - principles that have been almost solely responsible for mankind's thankful emergence from the Dark Ages into this new Age of Reason.

Those same principles have also been the primary source of every single major advancement we have seen in medicine, technology, aerospace, communications, transportation, industry and more over the past few centuries. We cannot afford for them to be seriously compromised in the minds of current or future generations - especially in light of the astonishing recent growth of radical religious terrorism on a global scale.

Fundamentalist zealots have become the single greatest enemy we face and they thrive on a virulent strain of desperation-inspired blind faith combined with healthy doses of irrational fear and outright ignorance.

Expressing these concerns on any forum at any time is better that playing polite games of political correctness aimed at three-year-olds (an evil unto itself).

So when someone attacks the basic concept of the unbiased, honest pursuit of knowledge, I respond. Just remember that other than that lunatic who started this thread (one who I know all too well from several other message boards), it's not God who has been under attack here, it has been rational thinking.

Cheers, Terry

bmn

July 6th, 2006, 10:01 pm

Rafal Dudek

July 6th, 2006, 10:12 pm

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Beats me what being smart and being too busy to post on game forums have to do with one another. Matter of fact, the dumbest people I know don't even have a web connection or a PC. They don't play interactive games either. But many of them sure are busy eking out a meager living working long hours at really crappy jobs, getting blind drunk every weekend and otherwise wasting away in front of the boobtube.

Oh, most of them can also be predictably found in church every Sunday morning singing hymns (badly) and worshipping a make belief invisible man in the sky

Cheers, Terry

Hmm, I somehow dont fall into that. I'm a true believer in God. I go to church every Sunday. So does my g/f and she's even a bigger believer than me. I'm computer savvy and have internet access and play games. Since last month, I became a liquor store owner. In the last 3 weeks, I made about $20,000 profit by going through the end-of-month accounting period.

I may believe in an invisible man, but it sure makes my life more wonderful knowing there is afterlife. I just cant imagine living in a world without a form of a supreme being that created everything and not knowing about afterlife. It just seems miserable living knowing that your entire life will just end and all that is left is blackness for rest of eternity.

But I do also have an opened mind. I have no problems with evolution or other scientific data. Infact, I like science. Especially physics =D

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 10:49 pm

.

Hmm, I somehow dont fall into that. I'm a true believer in God. I go to church every Sunday. So does my g/f and she's even a bigger believer than me. I'm computer savvy and have internet access and play games. Since last month, I became a liquor store owner. In the last 3 weeks, I made about $20,000 profit by going through the end-of-month accounting period.

I may believe in an invisible man, but it sure makes my life more wonderful knowing there is afterlife. I just cant imagine living in a world without a form of a supreme being that created everything and not knowing about afterlife. It just seems miserable living knowing that your entire life will just end and all that is left is blackness for rest of eternity.

But I do also have an opened mind. I have no problems with evolution or other scientific data. Infact, I like science. Especially physics =D

I'm glad you have a firm belief in something so comforting ZZZ. But I'm even happier that it does not preclude you from also participating in a successful business while enjoying all this cool new technology and taking full advantage of all that science has to offer.

Unfortunately, unlike yourself, there are many faithful people in this world who have turned to religious zealotry. They let their core spiritual beliefs rule every aspect of their lives from beginning to end, blindly and without question - and worse, they truly believe that it is their duty to force all others to adopt the exact same set of beliefs, no matter the cost. Those people are flat-out dangerous.

As for "knowing" that an afterlife exists or not, as a genuine agnostic, I have no idea about that. I only know that there is inadequate evidence to reach a final, rational conclusion regarding all such matters. Personally, I consider blind faith in God or anything else that is simply unproveable during our brief mortal existience to be a completely repellent idea - one that goes directly against the very concepts of unbiased discovery and independent free thought.

After all, why even bother asking tough questions or looking for honest answers if you firmly believe you already know the ultimate truth about all man's most perplexing queries?

Cheers, Terry

P.S.

I fail to see how any true believer can be moreso than another. Either you believe in God or you don't (or you're just unsure either way). In other words, all genuine non-believers are atheists and all other non-theists of all leanings are by definition agnostics. Like myself, they're unafraid to openly and unapologetically admit they simply do not "know".

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Rafal Dudek

July 6th, 2006, 10:56 pm

Unfortunately, unlike yourself, there are many faithful people in this world who have turned to religious zealotry. They let their core spiritual beliefs rule every aspect of their lives from beginning to end, blindly and without question - and worse, they truly believe that it is their duty to force all others to adopt the exact same set of beliefs, no matter the cost. Those people are flat-out dangerous.

Same can be said about people who constantly try to put down religion and try to influence people not to believe in anything.

After all, why even bother asking tough questions or looking for honest answers if you firmly believe you already know the ultimate truth about all man's most perplexing queries?

Because no one knows and science has not proven yet otherwise. But religion does offer a pretty comforting idea. Whether you take it as fact or fiction, its a personal decision. And no one should have the right to say "oh you are wrong for believing this or that". People can state all the facts they want, just dont try to shove it down someones throat.

Terry Penrod

July 6th, 2006, 11:19 pm

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Same can be said about people who constantly try to put down religion and try to influence people not to believe in anything.

Because no one knows and science has not proven yet otherwise. But religion does offer a pretty comforting idea. Whether you take it as fact or fiction, its a personal decision. And no one should have the right to say "oh you are wrong for believing this or that". People can state all the facts they want, just dont try to shove it down someones throat.

Funny ZZZ, in all my many travels over the years, I've never once been accosted by a single solitary atheist trying to convince me that God doesn't exist (let alone by an aggressive, organized group of them).

Religious zealots on the other hand I have met individually and by the hundreds on waaaaaay too many occassions to list. Some where fairly civil and non-threatening but most have been extremely pushy. A few have become downright violent.

So while your argument may seem to have a hint of merit at first glance, in reality it constitutes a total fallacy - as it simply does not represent what happens 99.99% of the time in real life.

Fact is non-believers mostly don't care what you believe... as long as you leave them alone. A very large number of believers however feel compelled to foist their ideas onto others - even when clearly and firmly asked not to. A growing number today will even kill you for not fully adopting their beliefs blindly.

Now, which group REALLY represents a problem in this world, believers or non-believers? And what type of person actually started this sorry excuse for a thread? He was a different type of believer - but a believer nevertheless.

Cheers, Terry

Gary V.

July 7th, 2006, 12:09 am

I guess you look like an easy target to people, Terry. I have never had anyone be pushy to me concerning religion. I think if you advertise that you don't believe in God, then sure, lots of religious folks are gonna say "Man, we gotta help this guy."

I'm still not arguing the existence of God for it would be a pointless arguement. You don't possess the knowledge to change my mind, and I certainly don't have anything which will sway you. I just think if you don't believe in God, fine, but I have a problem with trying to shoot holes, or rather nuke holes in your case, in people's beliefs.

By the way, I wasn't trying to say you are not smart in my first snide post. You are clearly extremely intelligent. Being the smartest guy around doesn't always make you right, though.

bmn

July 7th, 2006, 12:27 am

As someone who does not advertise ANY religious affiliation whatsoever, I have often been the target of door-to-door religion salesmen evangelical Christians going door-to-door peddling their ideas "spreading the faith" and trying to scam save me.

Conversly, I have NEVER been approached by an athiest trying to convert me. Nor do I know of any person who has been.

You don't possess the knowledge to change my mind
Thank you, Gary V., for demonstrating a very common logical fallacy.

A lot of Christians believe (or seem to believe) that they are not required to provide ANY evidence whatsoever supporting the assertion of a god, and that atheists are required to provide overwhelming amounts of evidence in order to DISprove the existence of God. Rubbish. You cannot simply assert something so ridiculous sans any proof and then claim that it is true until proven false. If this were the case, I could accuse someone of murder and they would be convicted if no evidence were presented whatsoever.
As I said, rubbish.

Terry Penrod

July 7th, 2006, 01:04 am

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I guess you look like an easy target to people, Terry. I have never had anyone be pushy to me concerning religion. I think if you advertise that you don't believe in God, then sure, lots of religious folks are gonna say "Man, we gotta help this guy."

I'm still not arguing the existence of God for it would be a pointless arguement. You don't possess the knowledge to change my mind, and I certainly don't have anything which will sway you. I just think if you don't believe in God, fine, but I have a problem with trying to shoot holes, or rather nuke holes in your case, in people's beliefs.

By the way, I wasn't trying to say you are not smart in my first snide post. You are clearly extremely intelligent. Being the smartest guy around doesn't always make you right, though.

On the contrary Gary, I never advertise my personal beliefs in public places or at work - especially to strangers. I have traveled extensively though, met many people from all walks of life along the way and have lived in several places where the average person is a card-carrying member of a zealotous religious organization.

For instance, here in Houston we have a huge number of very active Southern Baptists and some truly massive churches that use bigtime evangelical TV shows, lots of advertising blitzes and very aggressive outreach programs. A few of my own business clients are ardent believers too and I can't begin to count the times these people have approached me without any encouragement whatsoever.

The latest is a really pathetic, lonely, old Spanish woman who has been knocking on doors in my neighborhood almost every day for the past year waving a Bible and ranting on and on. She doesn't understand a word of English either, so it's very hard to get rid of her. And when she's not coming around, we have two scary looking twin boys in their late teens who dress in identical ultra conservative outfits carrying bookbags full of Bibles and religious pamphlets going door-to-door. I guess I'm on their regular route because I've seen them now several dozen times. However, they seem decent enough and I'm always polite in saying no.

Back east, I spent a few years in the deep south just before and after my dad died and was treated to a constant flow of such encounters by genuine holy rollers who quite literally carried The Good Book at all times. They were the very definition of Bible Thumpers who would scream "Amen Brother" and "Praise Jesus" at the drop of a hat. I think many of them were downright crazy and no they were not avoidable.

Later in Florida, our home was visited at least once every week for over five years by a group of very aggressive door-to-door religious zealots who never did learn to take no for an answer. They were real pests too and a couple of them actually made threats to myself, my little brother and my widowed mom. They did similar things with the neighbors too. So we reported them to the police and at least the worst ones stopped coming around.

A few years beyond that I had to fly a lot for business through Washington, DC's old airport where you couldn't walk ten feet without being surrounded by a whole herd of Hare Krishna freaks demanding money and begging you to listen to their version of The Truth.

Perhaps the scariest incident ever was again in Florida but this time as one of two dozen people traveling by rental cars from Tampa Airport to Sebring to shoot Pennzoil racing commercials with Rick Mears. Our car had fallen behind the others and it broke down right outside an insanely large meeting of holy rollers in matching RVs (rows and rows of them) out in the middle of nowhere. There were thousands of those people in an open field with a huge temporary stage, a massive sound system, a makeshift helipad and "Praise Jesus" signs as far as the eye could see. It honestly looked like a clean-cut version of Woodstock.

Fortunately, the director from New York had a still rare, expensive portable phone and we were able to call a gas station in the nearest little town to arrange for a tow. But as we waited (for several hours right by the main entrance), we were given some of the ugliest stares you can imagine as we were very obviously not part of the program and evidently, they really, really didn't want outsiders watching their unabashed mass prayer frenzy.

So when I say I've had more than my fair share of experience with aggressive religious zealots, I mean it.

Cheers, Terry

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Rafal Dudek

July 7th, 2006, 01:22 am

So while your argument may seem to have a hint of merit at first glance, in reality it constitutes a total fallacy - as it simply does not represent what happens 99.99% of the time in real life.

Maybe so, most people are cool so its not a problem. But I can name a few people personally who either A) made fun of me for believing in a religion B) Try to convince me otherwise.

Fact is non-believers mostly don't care what you believe... as long as you leave them alone. A very large number of believers however feel compelled to foist their ideas onto others - even when clearly and firmly asked not to. A growing number today will even kill you for not fully adopting their beliefs blindly.

That is true, I wont deny it. I'm not gonna tell you to belief in something. This is a matter of personal choice. You can find out all the facts on any religion at anytime you want. I dont want to nor do I want to waste mine or anyone elses time trying to convince you of something that you may or may not want to believe in.

I only stated that my religion makes my life more happier. Will it make your life happier? Thats your decision. I only pointed out the way I feel about it.

Now, which group REALLY represents a problem in this world, believers or non-believers?

Not the ones in between. Its always the people on the far left and far right. Just like politics. A good friend of mine is a dedicated jew, but he doesnt go around preaching. I'm a pretty much a dedicated roman catholic, but I dont go around preaching either.

edit: btw, instead of calling me ZZZ, call me Rafal D. You know me :):

Terry Penrod

July 7th, 2006, 01:51 am

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Like I said ZZZ / Rafal (wasn't sure you wanted us to keep using your old screen name), I have no problem with anyone who believes or disbelieves in God. But of all the many people I have met in life, it is ONLY believers who have been aggressive about pushing their theological ideas on me. I've known several atheists too and never once have they made uninvited attempts to convert me.

Sure, I have discussed these ideological matters at length in private with theists, atheists and agnostics alike. But they have always been free and open dialogs I agreed to. And therein lies the difference. I never agreed to discuss religious ideas with any of the people I mentioned above. I never approached them once and I never encouraged them in any way. But still they have knocked on my door relentlessly, stopped me at airports, left reams of unwanted literature on my property, solicited money from me countless times, and even made occassional threats.

To me, this entire issue is moot as I will never adopt either a purely theistic or atheistic view without overwhelming, convincing, unbiased, tangible proof one way or the other. Faith is simply not enough for me and neither is logical assumption.

In the end, I do not believe that any mortal man who has ever lived has been nearly intelligent or knowledgeable enough to say with absolute certainty that God does or does not exist. Therefore I place absolutely zero "faith" in both polar views and even less in manmade institutions dedicated to them. I also feel no compulsion whatsoever to answer that question and am completely at peace with the fact I probably will never know in this lifetime.

Cheers, Terry

Rafal Dudek

July 7th, 2006, 02:00 am

But of all the many people I have met in life, it is ONLY believers who have been aggressive about pushing their theological ideas on me. I've known several atheists too and never once have they made uninvited attempts to convert me.

Probably has something to do with you living in a place full of conservative people. I recently moved to Colorado which is also a red state, but its not too bad here. People sure seem more religious here but no one yet tried to push their beliefs down my throat yet. When they try though, they'll get the New York City hell from me =]

btw, since you dont live too far away, if you ever stop by Colorado, hit up my shop. We'll tip a few drinks =]

Terry Penrod

July 7th, 2006, 02:24 am

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Probably. I've also lived in Maryland and Massachusetts plus spent quite a bit of time in New York City, LA and San Francisco - all very liberal places where I never encountered the same degree of fundamental religious zealotry. Sames goes for most of the Washington, DC area where I lived and worked. People there, despite it being so intensely political, rarely pushed their religious ideas on you or demanded to know to yours.

Oddly, one of the very best conversationalists I have ever had the pleasure of calling a close friend was an older Jesuit Priest at Georgetown University. We used to play Chess in Washington and we raced Olympic-class sailboats together on the Chesapeake Bay. Over the years, we had a great many long discussions about theology, philosophy, science, politics, literature, art, music and well, practically everything else in life - including women (he wasn't always a priest you know).

Although obviously an ardent believer, he never once tried to convert me and I never once questioned his personal faith - which was greatly appreciated by both of us.

Cheers, Terry

P.S.

Thanks for the invitation Rafal. If I'm ever in Colorado, I'll be sure to look you up.

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Mr. Natural

July 7th, 2006, 11:32 am

I think there is one clarification to be made. There are many people who believe in a higher power which some term "God" but do not associate themselves with any religion. I am one of those and most people who have that belief support all beliefs and do not try to sway others to their thinking. There are some however who hold that belief and make that their religion. I do not.
I believe in a higher power but firmly believe the world would be a far better place without religion, unless all the religions of the world someday recognize that their beliefs are their personal choice and are willing to accept and respect another belief.
Someday perhaps all will realize they all recognize and worship the same higher power. It's just that they've had different messengers to deliver the message. If that ever occurs perhaps we can eliminate all the wars and death which have occurred all these centuries and continue to occur.

So let's not confuse belief in a higher power with religion. They are 2 separate entities.
:shades:

pcfreak

July 7th, 2006, 11:42 am

Terry, you should have defined your points more clearly, and yes it was a kneejerk reaction to a pompous and snobbish post!! I stand by my comments!!! BTW, how do you know so much about these "dropout's" lives? Or is it just conjecture? I really do wonder!

SupaTroopa

July 7th, 2006, 02:59 pm

What a noble person you are, Mr. Penrod, to try your best to shake the faith of others. I don't understand the purpose of those who try to convince others there is no God. However, those who try to convince others that there is a God are, in many cases, attempting to broaden the kingdom of heaven. Additionally, most people need to believe in God more than anything in life. Perhaps they have lost a child and the prospect of never seeing him again is softened by the belief that they will see their child in heaven.

I expect there may be a few people reading this debate who are on the fence in their belief. They may need to believe, but also see the posts proclaiming there is no God. Posts which seem very intelligent. Maybe, with some luck, you and the others will shatter someone's faith; something they may need in the future or need now to get through tough times. Man, I would not want that on my head.

All I know is, a person has absolutely nothing to lose by believing in God and Jesus. If they don't exist, well, I have at least been comforted thinking a wonderful being who loves me is out there. If God does exist, however, I get eternal life in heaven. I hope there's some kind of second chance for those who got it wrong in this life, but I'm afraid there probably isn't.

Funny that I agree with both Gary and Terry - since they seemingly come from opposite ends of the spectrum here....

On one hand I respect the fact certain folks need or choose to embrace a religion to get them through personal challenges, no matter what they may be - but if it helps them personally - more power to them.

On the other it's the evangelists, the hypocrites and the missionaries that cross the line into others' lives and demand respect for their own beliefs, yet spit on others who don't share it.

I only seek truth - and I learned as a child to never trust a fellow human being beyond a certain point - ecspecially the written word.

The universe is a mystery of sorts for a reason - it forces us to evolve over time without wiping everything out before we do find it. It's a grand plan.

I don't believe in "God" or heaven or hell, none of that, never will...but do believe there is something to be said about quantam physics/cosmology, alternate universes and dimensions - levels of consciousness - all of which, until very recently, we have never been able to begin to comprehend...and we are still a long way from doing so.

If it were that easy to figure out - and religion were suddenly taken away from the world - we would meet chaos of course, and destroy ourselves.

Over time, with each passing generation, the grips of religion loosen, the minds of people expand, and the levels of consciousness and understanding increase.

I'm sure there are aliens watching us right now, spirits around us, and things happening to us we cannot see, touch or smell or hear.

So, it has become my life's purpose to find out as much as I can, pass it on to my family, friends and children in some way, in the hope that one or more of them pick it up and run with it when my time is gone...and that thousands and millions of others do the same over time.

There has to be a better way for humans than religion, as it stands today - it's that eternal hope of finding something meaningful and truly astonishing that should keep us going - not fairy tales and draconic laws and doom and gloom.

I trust I am in good hands when I die, if I am generally a good person, do not physically harm others unless defending myself, am honest, giving, and try to be a better person, with success, and die having covered my dirty path with new soil so that the mistakes will be buried forever or corrected.

Terry Penrod

July 7th, 2006, 05:02 pm

.

Terry, you should have defined your points more clearly, and yes it was a kneejerk reaction to a pompous and snobbish post!! I stand by my comments!!! BTW, how do you know so much about these "dropout's" lives? Or is it just conjecture? I really do wonder!

Think whatever you want HexSys. But don't imagine for a second that I have led some kind of privileged life or that I have not and do not now know people from virtually every walk of life - including those well below the lowest rung of society who live completely off the radar. I also know more than a few people at the top and many more in the middle who are in various stages of ascent and descent.

I know nothing about you or what you've done in life other than what's in your brief forum profile. However, if you have a broad scope of experiences then you know that the longer a person lives, the more he does, the more places he travels, the more he learns and the greater his frame of reference becomes.

As long as you never isolate yourself from the world and if you always strive to seek a wide variety of new experiences, you will develop an ever expanding circle of friends, acquaintances and associates. If you allow them to be as diverse as possible, you will have eventually tapped directly into the full range of human society from the very bottom to the very top - as I have.

This I have done all my life and I never plan to stop. At no point will I ever seek a small circle of likeminded people or a segregated lifestyle or a job that does not allow me to continually interface with people of all kinds. I have no interest in a safe, secure, predictable life, which is why I have always been the blackest black sheep in my extensive family. I am by definition an eclectic thinker, a non-follower, a jack-of-all-trades, an eccentric loner, and most of all a confirmed agnostic with iconoclastic tendencies who rejects all forms of organized religion and all established theologies.

In a nutshell, I consider theism and atheism to be virtually identical in that each school of thought purports to know absolutely that which absolutely cannot be known by any mortal man. But as wrong as I think both concepts are, I consider the individual right to freedom of thought to be of far greater importance.

Groupthink on the other hand can be a very dangerous thing - especially when the participants are self-righteous, highly organized, self-reinforcing, blindly obedient, and aggressively intrusive on the equal freedoms and rights of others, as many religious institutions are.

It is my sincerest hope that someday in the distant future, mankind will evolve to a level that eliminates the need for all organized belief systems that rely on blind faith in a set of unfounded suppositions, prescribed tenets and rigid theological precepts as their primary foundational components. Failing that, I hope we can at least get past the divisive conflicts between the world's major religions and finally learn to live in mutually tolerant peace.

Cheers, Terry

Terry Penrod

July 7th, 2006, 05:10 pm

.

P.S. to HexSys

Just for clarity, I was not referring to "dropouts" in my original post - although I know many of them too (including some truly tragic cases). Instead, I was talking about average people who lead average lives, have (at best) average jobs and in most cases hold themselves back at every turn by refusing to try new things, to learn, to take risks. I know many people like this and the dumbest amongst them complain endlessly about their dead-end jobs, etc. while refusing to take advantage of even the most rudimentary PC and Internet technology. They are not necessarily too stupid to learn, just too lazy to bother and/or deathly afraid of change.

This I have seen countless times and it almost always leads to a great deal of frustration, discontentment, depression and a loss of self-confidence, which in turn often leads to booze, drugs and other problems. Many of these same people here in the Bible Belt use their weekly visit to church as a classic crutch to quickly absolve them of their sins so they can face another mostly empty week. Some do this all their lives and sadly never figure out that they can change the pattern anytime they want.

Cheers, Terry

Terry Penrod

July 7th, 2006, 05:30 pm

.

Funny that I agree with both Gary and Terry - since they seemingly come from opposite ends of the spectrum here....

On one hand I respect the fact certain folks need or choose to embrace a religion to get them through personal challenges, no matter what they may be - but if it helps them personally - more power to them.

On the other it's the evangelists, the hypocrites and the missionaries that cross the line into others' lives and demand respect for their own beliefs, yet spit on others who don't share it.

I only seek truth - and I learned as a child to never trust a fellow human being beyond a certain point - ecspecially the written word.

The universe is a mystery of sorts for a reason - it forces us to evolve over time without wiping everything out before we do find it. It's a grand plan.

I don't believe in "God" or heaven or hell, none of that, never will...but do believe there is something to be said about quantam physics/cosmology, alternate universes and dimensions - levels of consciousness - all of which, until very recently, we have never been able to begin to comprehend...and we are still a long way from doing so.

If it were that easy to figure out - and religion were suddenly taken away from the world - we would meet chaos of course, and destroy ourselves.

Over time, with each passing generation, the grips of religion loosen, the minds of people expand, and the levels of consciousness and understanding increase.

I'm sure there are aliens watching us right now, spirits around us, and things happening to us we cannot see, touch or smell or hear.

So, it has become my life's purpose to find out as much as I can, pass it on to my family, friends and children in some way, in the hope that one or more of them pick it up and run with it when my time is gone...and that thousands and millions of others do the same over time.

There has to be a better way for humans than religion, as it stands today - it's that eternal hope of finding something meaningful and truly astonishing that should keep us going - not fairy tales and draconic laws and doom and gloom.

I trust I am in good hands when I die, if I am generally a good person, do not physically harm others unless defending myself, am honest, giving, and try to be a better person, with success, and die having covered my dirty path with new soil so that the mistakes will be buried forever or corrected.

Good post SupaTroopa and I applaud everything you wrote except the highlighted sentence above.

It is not automatically assured that the human race will evolve with each new generation and as recently witnessed, we are perfectly capable of falling right back into very harmful old patterns.

At no time in my life have I seen anywhere near the amount and scope of fundamental religious extremism as we have in the world today. It IMO threatens civilization itself in that the conflicts between the major theological factions (which represent literally billions of people) have grown so deep and so sharp, they have become more than just a set of conceptual polar opposites.

Spurred by volatile political and economic conditions, they have now crossed over the line and become aggressive reactionary enemies in the classic sense. They are now motivated to nearly a fever pitch and many have already turned to radicalism, violence and terrorism on a global scale.

I see this as the potential spark of the third and last world war. To me this shocking growth in fundamental religious extremism of all kinds represents the steepest challenge to achieving world peace we have or may ever face.

Cheers, Terry

jeffchele

July 8th, 2006, 09:07 am

the human race has an indomitable will to survive and i think unless man in his infinite stupidity renders the entire planet totally uninhabitable that he will never be gone from the universe. unless man comes to terms with each other and learns to live with each others opinions and differences then there will never really be an end to war. world wars may never happen again as we are now on the lookout for the kinds of actions that preclude the involvement of so many people in huge conflicts but you never know what the future holds.

Terry Penrod

July 8th, 2006, 01:43 pm

.

Global nuclear war is just one way mankind might be wiped-out. A series of severe enviromental changes, certain highly contagious diseases, dramatic shifts in the weather, and even a cataclysmic cosmic event could render this planet void of human life, possibly all life.

Of course, we can only affect some of those things. But of the ones we can (at least to some degree) control, we had better start doing a much better job and soon.

Cheers, Terry

Gary V.

July 8th, 2006, 04:08 pm

This is off the wall, but I found it interesting nonetheless. I was driving around listening to "America Coast to Coast", a radio show that talks about UFOs and the paranormal, and there was a man who said he worked for the NSA and had dealings with aliens. I can't remember much of what he said, but he did say his contact with aliens led him to know that there is a God. I wish I could remember what he said exactly, but I do remember getting a chill up my spine with some of the things he was saying. I don't have any idea if he is a wacko or if he actually does have evidence of alien life and God, but I thought it was interesting to hear someone say that due to his experience with aliens(not his terminology), he has 100% knowledge that there is a God. Sounds crazy, but it was cool to hear.

Terry Penrod

July 8th, 2006, 06:50 pm

.

Cool idea Gary and there really is nothing that would make me happier than to see absolute proof positive that a sentient supreme creator (especially a loving and benevolent one) exists. It would forever put all these arguments to rest. It would unite all people of all religions under a single, certain belief in something far better than we can currently imagine. It might even make us realize, finally, that we are indeed all part of the same big thing and that our petty differences are not worth pursuing any longer. It could end war and signal the beginning of lasting peace on earth.

In other words. it would be cooler than cool. It would be the greatest thing that has ever happened to the human race.

One possible downside though... it could also be seen as an excuse for ending our long, perpetual path of discovery, our mission to explore the universe further in search of greater knowledge. A truly perfect God however simply would not allow that to occur. So I suspect he would keep a number of other things secret - just to keep us motivated and moving forward - one little step at a time like the cosmic children we are.

Cheers, Terry

.

Rafal Dudek

July 8th, 2006, 07:09 pm

You blasphemers! Dont you know I'm your god? I should just smitzor all of you! hehe :p:

Terry Penrod

July 8th, 2006, 10:18 pm

.

You blasphemers! Dont you know I'm your god? I should just smitzor all of you! hehe :p:

Dear God;

Dying of thirst. Please send a case of heavenly single malt scotch and/or elegant French champagne immediately.

I promise to use these gifts only in the most reverent ceremonial rituals dedicated to your cosmic greatness and benevolent generosity.

Your faithful servant Terry

d4m

August 27th, 2006, 07:39 pm

God is very real. What is going to change is what we think god is. At first god was the sun and the planet who gave us food and life and light. Then god became this creator who made just 2 people to spawn us all and now god was a HE and he was a destroy, vengful, righteous. Then god became a son and now god was love, and peace, etc.

One thing many religions fail to acknowledge but accept is that god is truth, and truth is NEVER changing. It can't change, otherwise its not longer truth, therefore god has been and always will be what god is and its has been only our understanding of god which has changed.

Science is the religion of proof where religion is the science of faith. Both are one in the same. When a current explanation of something in their area fails, a new one is made to fill in the gaps that the questioning and seeking created.

Infinity is a concept of growth. Its not a number. To approach infinity you must have approached from some position meaning that the position which follows came after the position before, and if there is a before and an after, there must has been a point of beginning since any before point could be characterized as a beginning, but since infinity is growth, there is not an end since no matter what point you choose after, there will always be one which follows. A proof by induction basically. Yes, you can say what about a point before?? Problem which that counter example is that infinity is growth, to always assume something before would be saying that infinity is reduction, and no matter how much you reduce, you eventually hit the bottom.

Also, with the atom in your finger, Puh-leaze. There is an end. There is a quantified packet everything is based on and can be no smaller. Read up on Planc's constant, zero point energy and quantum mechanics. Science will prove what religion has failed to prove, that god does infact exists, but its not going to be the savior or redeeming or loving 'father' everyone expects. Science will find that god is the infinite potential which exists in all matter's quantum states permitting it do be and do that which can not be believed and that we will be able to tap into.

Faith is the power which takes infinite potential and turns it into something real, be it the traffic light changing just at the right time to being able to walk on water because the surfase tension for some reason is a bit high that day.

NeedForPower

August 27th, 2006, 11:38 pm

You know, getting into this kind of arguement is pointless there is those that believe and those that dont. There is alot of evidence that supports there is a god, and some that says no way. So really, no point to continue this...

U.2.K.

September 10th, 2006, 12:34 am

This dude only made one post lol.

Scientist is always trying to prove this and that, but i dont pay them no mind. I believe in GOD, and The Messiah and the bible and thats pretty much it. I dont listen to false teachers, and scientist doesnt know everything.

Peace :)

Terry Penrod

September 10th, 2006, 01:06 am

.

This dude only made one post lol.

Scientist is always trying to prove this and that, but i dont pay them no mind. I believe in GOD, and The Messiah and the bible and thats pretty much it. I dont listen to false teachers, and scientist doesnt know everything.

Peace :)

Not exactly a compelling argument from any perspective but your own.

FYI - In case you didn't know it, the original thread starter is notorious for posting the exact same controversial topic on numerous forums around the web. He usually then leaves but I have spoken with him a few times on another forum and he is just as sure he's right as you are. But like yourself, he too has zero tangible proof that his personal beliefs are actually true. So in effect your opinions cancel each other out in terms of an unbiased, rational public debate.

As always, a belief in God comes down to nothing more than faith and that faith must be arrived at by each individual person. It does not work on any other level in a free society and any attempt to institutionalize it or adopt it into law is doomed to failure because you cannot dictate personal faith. All you can hope to do is offer the option to believe by exercising free will.

Otherwise organized religion becomes just another form of tyranny.

Cheers, Terry

NeedForPower

September 10th, 2006, 02:35 am

I cant believe there is any reason to continue posting in this thread. There are those with beliefs and there are those who have other beliefs.... There are those who have different opinions and for the most part no matter what you say with change it.

You cannot and will not know if there is a God until you die.... Simple as that.

mandrake

September 10th, 2006, 03:12 pm

NeedForPower

September 10th, 2006, 04:18 pm

Was just trying to end it...

MasterChief

September 10th, 2006, 05:28 pm

Torsion

September 17th, 2006, 01:56 pm

In the five years and 3 or 4 reincarnations of this forum I've experienced, we have this thread at least once every few months. I think, in the future, if someone gets the urge to continue this pointless argument, he/she should just do a forum search...that way, you can read all you want and you don't even have to bother the rest of us :p:

So basically you want to stop a thread that people are clearly interested and impassioned about (200+ posts) because you are bothered by the discussion? Well frankly thats what the heated discussion is for and you have the choice to not participate in this thread. You do realise that this post is about our very existance and has been in debate since before recorded history. I can not think of a topic more poignant and less pointless.

The true knight of faith does not need to preach or tell people what to do. He walks amoung us anonimously. Religion is the product of false knights of faith who doubt themselves and feel the need for group affirmation of faith. God is everything there ever was and exists in each of us. He is the cognitive force that willed the universe into existance.

I am not saying that religious people are not faithfull and can not have a true relationship with god. However, I reject the idea that if you do not follow a specific religion you are lost and are going to hell. This is satanic logic. How many people have to die before people understand that there can be multiple paths to the same place. Its not about the journey, its about the destination.

MasterChief

September 17th, 2006, 07:25 pm

Torsion, chill yourself. I'm pretty sure the goofy smiley at the end of my post means that my comment was intended to be tongue-in-cheek. But yeah, I admit, I'm a bit tired of a discussion that has been going on for thousands of years, has failed to convince anybody of anything, and shows no signs of stopping. In any event, if in the future I want to be taken completely seriously I'll let you know (which is rarely) :D:

mandrake

September 18th, 2006, 02:02 am

The true knight of faith does not need to preach or tell people what to do. He walks amoung us anonimously. Religion is the product of false knights of faith who doubt themselves and feel the need for group affirmation of faith. God is everything there ever was and exists in each of us. He is the cognitive force that willed the universe into existance.

Hogwash.
Utter hogwash.
Tell us, when was the last time you cognitively willed something into physical existence.

I am not saying that religious people are not faithfull and can not have a true relationship with god. However, I reject the idea that if you do not follow a specific religion you are lost and are going to hell. This is satanic logic. How many people have to die before people understand that there can be multiple paths to the same place. Its not about the journey, its about the destination.

How is it satanic logic to believe that there is only one way to heaven.
I believe the logic you are purporting is just as faith-based as that which you accuse others of believing. Perhaps it is your logic that is flawed and satanic?

bmn

September 18th, 2006, 03:04 am

Hogwash.
Utter hogwash.
Tell us, when was the last time you cognitively willed something into physical existence.

I'm not sure what this is, though it does sound like you just renounced your religion on principle.

Do we have another atheist/agnostic on the forums?

For your information, he never really even implied that he could make objects materialize, rather that his God could. i.e., you just called him his own God. I honestly have no idea where this is going, but would you care to edit your post so that it makes a lick of sense? :wtf2:

How is it satanic logic to believe that there is only one way to heaven(?)
It's intolerant.

I believe the logic you are purporting is just as faith-based as that which you accuse others of believing. Perhaps it is your logic that is flawed and satanic?
Ooh, the satan card. Fun stuff tolerance is when it comes to Christianity, isn't it?

It must be great to simply dismiss those who disagree with you as devil-worshippers, but back in the real world that doesn't quite work. Why believe in a God if the only way to gain his/her/its favor is to accept the clearly ridiculous, renounce all logic and reason and obey without thinking or questioning? What tyrant would do that? Not one I'd bow down before. No, if I were to beleive in an afterlife, I would hope that the way to get there would be leading a good life. Who cares what you beleive, except those who wish to force their own beleifs upon you? As long as you're being a good person, does it really matter?

mandrake

September 18th, 2006, 11:27 am

bmn, you should try reading original posts before you attempt to intelligently discuss the response.

Torsion

September 18th, 2006, 03:32 pm

Hogwash.
Utter hogwash.
Tell us, when was the last time you cognitively willed something into physical existence.

Have you read Kierkegaard? What I said about a knight of faith was my opinion. I do not think saying only that is hogwash is a valid argument against my point. Of course I have not willed anything into existance! I am not god, but I believe that god can. I suggest you follow your own advice and read a little more carefully.

How is it satanic logic to believe that there is only one way to heaven.
I believe the logic you are purporting is just as faith-based as that which you accuse others of believing. Perhaps it is your logic that is flawed and satanic?

Because its intolerant and thinks only in absolutes. I do not think that god thinks in absolutes or is intolerant. My argument was about the failiures of organized religion, not faith. My post was intended to point out the contrast between real faith and religious faith and why they are different but not mutually exclusive. Evidently you missed the important parts of what I wrote. Moreover, my logic is illogical because faith is illogical. I am offended that you believe an idiom so merciful and tolerant satanic...

Who cares what you beleive, except those who wish to force their own beleifs upon you? As long as you're being a good person, does it really matter?

Agreed, but I liked the way I said it :)

Oh and sorry MC, I thought you were being serious lol

NeedForPower

September 18th, 2006, 05:58 pm

Alright guys, clearly everyone has their own opinion and nothing is going to change it. This is turning into a fight rather than a "heated discussion". Like I said its not likely anyone will change their opinion based on what you say here. Just end the thread, there is no point to it!

Rafal Dudek

September 18th, 2006, 06:47 pm

Damnut, my God is cooler than your God so therefore I must conquer you!!!!11!!one!

RangerRick

September 18th, 2006, 06:58 pm

Damnut, my God is cooler than your God so therefore I must conquer you!!!!11!!one!
:lame:

Sez you!!

:moon:

bmn

September 18th, 2006, 11:16 pm

bmn, you should try reading original posts before you attempt to intelligently discuss the response.
Of course I have not willed anything into existance! I am not god, but I believe that god can. I suggest you follow your own advice and read a little more carefully.

Thank you.

mandrake

September 19th, 2006, 12:19 am

wow.
I just re-read Torsion's second paragraph and realized I misread something.
The way I read it earlier, I thought you meant something along the lines of God being some sort of thinking collective unconscious. The way I read it, my argument made sense, and bmn made none.
Now I realize I shouldn't have had a bowl of ice cream earlier because now there is no room for the humble pie, let alone my foot.

My bad to both of you (and that is especially hard for me to say to you bmn, due to regularly being of the opposite mindset to you in topics like this).

Gary V.

July 11th, 2007, 11:05 pm

Whoa, atheism is really taking off. There's tons of books in the bookstores right now. Kind of scary.

My cousin's 6 month old son just died. The only comfort is the hope of seeing him in the next life. I really hope she doesn't come across any of these new books proclaiming there is no God or afterlife, because she doesn't need any seed of doubt planted in her mind that she might not ever be reunited with her baby boy. I think the guys writing these books are insensitive jerks. IF there is a God, oh, man; anyone who causes a person to lose faith is gonna hurt.(My opinion, not stated as fact.)

In other theological type news, my father and I have decided that gay people are gay due to biological causes. I have always been nice to the gay men I knew, but now I am probably less judgmental. I think if your biology is "normal", women are too attractive for a guy to ever think "I'm gonna mess around with dudes for a while."

Another thing: You atheist fellows are to be commended for what seems to be outstanding morals. If I weren't a Christian, I'd be chasing after women, robbing liquor stores, and generally raising hell. I'm afraid that's my basic nature, thank goodness for my personal belief that I will pay for my sin.

Hehe, I always get hammered for anything bad I do. I am still paying for something I shouldn't have done a few years ago.

I'm approaching 40; my life is probably over half finished, and I'm asking lots of questions. The question of God, the meaning of life, all that is with me every night when I go to bed. I have no answers, all I know is it scares the hell out of me to think of the possibility of no afterlife, no God, and loss of self. I guess you could say I believe 95% in the existence of God, that other 5% is scaring the crap outta me.

Anybody who read all this, thanks. I wouldn't have.

Sno

July 11th, 2007, 11:57 pm

Holy crap, what an old topic.

Anyways...

Oblivion, which really is the name for what you describe, is a pretty scary concept to have to deal with.

Personally, i find there's too many things in religion i can't reconcile with a rational world view, so...

Have a good life, a good legacy, that's what i'd say.

Treat people right, spend time with your kids, blah blah.

Make sure people remember you in a good light and won't forget.

^ That's about as close to preserving the self as anyone can really come to achieve.

Rafal Dudek

July 12th, 2007, 12:35 am

Oooo here is one!

How come atheists say "oh my god" and "goddamnit" all the time? :p:

All jokes aside. I have seen way too much supernatural **** in my life that removed any form of doubt of existence of God altogether. I may not be a follower of an organized religion, however I do believe in existence of a God.

Gary V.

July 12th, 2007, 12:41 am

Yep, old topic, nobody's forced to reply. I agree, much of religion is irrational, and you have to remember it's man made; therefore it's subject to error. I think the basic, simple ideas of religion apply and are real.

And, I'm thankful to say, I disagree that how people remember you is all there is. If that's all there is, then I really don't care how people remember me, because life would be absolutely without any meaning at all.

On a side note, it's interesting that there's such a high number of people who post here who don't believe or are agnostic/skeptic. I also find it interesting that the non-believers are up front, while I expect there are many here who believe in God but sit on the side and say nothing. I wonder why. I don't think anyone gets terribly offended in these talks, at least not enough to stop being friends.

Btw, Sno, you speak as if you know. You don't, and neither do I.

Gary V.

July 12th, 2007, 12:47 am

Rob

July 12th, 2007, 12:48 am

Gary, I am very sorry to hear about your cousin and their son. It seems a lot of tragedy has hit your family lately and by the way you are talking in your first post tonight, you seem shaken up. I know I would be.

Mortality is a very scary thing. It would be a hell of a lot easier if we could say there is an afterlife, death wouldn't feel so finite. As far as God, I have no answers, just my beliefs from the questions I have asked. I personally do not believe in an afterlife, which makes death for me a bit scarier. Especially now with a family, I definitely take less risks and I am much more conservative. But I also take a lot more joy in living and spending time with my family. Still, I do not know the truth, so who says I am right. I had a teacher tell me once that when it comes to beliefs, there is no right answer. Just keep questioning and hold onto the question that seems less wrong then the others. It will vary from person to person.

I also do not think atheists should be commended as you put it. The 10 commandments, whether you believe in God or not, are good values to live by. The Bible, whether you believe in God or not, has many good values and stories to guide you in your life.

My mom and my wife believe in God, I do not. I believe in humanity. I believe in myself and trying to live a good life. I believe in doing what I can to better everything around me, even though I falter many times. Hindu's, Muslim's, Christians and most other religions believe in a God, just by a different name. It is all faith separated by a name. People forget that, and that is why we have many of these wars and crusades and jihads. And that is where my issue falls, not God, not faith, but religion that seems to twist and distort. Just recently the Pope declared all other religions false religions. So many interpretations, even within the same church, how could anyone declare one is right while the other is wrong? Yet it happens all the time.

Question your faith on your own terms so you understand why you believe and listen to others to understand why their views are different. Believe in your convictions and don't let the 5% scare the crap out of you.

And if you read this, thanks. I really do wish for strength in your family during this very difficult time.

Gary V.

July 12th, 2007, 01:14 am

My dad recently became good friends with a professor from Texas A&M.
The prof. is a conservative christian, but he said something one day that my dad and I both liked. **He said that the best man in the world wouldn't send a good man to hell for not being a christian, and that God is infinitely better than the best man.** I like that, and that's the kind of God I want to believe in. So Rob, maybe there's hope for you even if you never come around to believing, die, and find out that God is indeed real. It would be very cool for you to see me and say, "Well, I was wrong, but God's letting me stay if I mow his yard for a thousand years." I'll help out if I have time, but I expect God's gonna have plenty of chores for me to do because I have a lot to answer for.

Sno

July 12th, 2007, 01:15 am

I'm thankful to say, I disagree that how people remember you is all there is. If that's all there is, then I really don't care how people remember me, because life would be absolutely without any meaning at all.
In contrast, i find the idea that everything we do in this life is simply a line of pre-determined tests makes life seem far more meaningless. Moreover, how is the concept that everyting accomplished will eventually be put to an inexorable and inescapable armageddon not the most depressing concept ever?

The way i see it, i can at least assign my own meaning to my life, and that small act contributes in guiding the whole of our society towards an unknown future with no definite conclusion.

In the way i choose to live, i want that i can contribute in what i feel is a positive fashion that will have impact on subsequent generations.

I think that's a rather hopeful way to live.
On a side note, it's interesting that there's such a high number of people who post here who don't believe or are agnostic/skeptic. I also find it interesting that the non-believers are up front, while I expect there are many here who believe in God but sit on the side and say nothing. I wonder why. I don't think anyone gets terribly offended in these talks, at least not enough to stop being friends.
There's no point in getting up in arms over what another person chooses to believe about the unseen, unless of course their line of beliefs leads them to obstruct mine or harm me.

Btw, Sno, you speak as if you know. You don't, and neither do I.
Hey, i guess i'm just more confident in my world view than you are in yours. Don't take that as a slight, i don't mean it as such. Confidence is largely irrelevant to whatever truths there are to the matter. I just choose to live by what i can see and know, not by mythic tales.

Rob

July 12th, 2007, 01:27 am

Sno, he wasn't getting up in arms, it was simply an observation.

Gary V.

July 12th, 2007, 01:28 am

Sno, your use of the word "mythic" underscores the vast difference in opinions we have. I don't believe in the Islamic, Muslim religions, but I certainly don't refer to their beliefs and literature as myths.

My hat's off to you. I don't think I could function if I thought I was here, gone, done. Something else that equally freaks me out is eternity and living forever without end. The human brain, or mine at least, just can't comprehend it.

Sno

July 12th, 2007, 01:46 am

Sno, he wasn't getting up in arms, it was simply an observation.
... What? Did i miss something?

Rafal Dudek

July 12th, 2007, 02:24 am

Zedd, you said earlier that you go to church every Sunday. Just wondering, because that sounds like you must follow some sort of religion. Mind you, I'm not complaining or taking you to task, just trying to clarify.

I do, but mainly because my g/f goes so I keep company and the fact that our 80+ year old priest is hilarious. I was born and raised a roman catholic. However I do have too much doubt for church in my heart. There are a lot of things in the bible that the church will never mention to us. I especially don't like the fact how the church tells us to live and do this and that. For example, a simple prayer. If you read in the bible of how Jesus wants you to pray, it's totally different than what you learn in the church.

My beliefs come from my own experience that I've lived through. Back during early years of high school, I was an emo kid. Heavy into witchcraft and all that. I even created a custom made ouija board for my rituals. And no, I wasn't doing drugs at that time just in case you're wondering. But in any event, alot of weird stuff happened during that time. In the beginning it wasn't that obvious but things were progressively getting worse. With various rituals and guardian summoning, I've been tapping into a void were you could pretty much talk with spirits. You always have to summon a guardian because you never know what kind of spirit you'll draw attention to.

Anyway, months pass by and strange things begin to happen around the house. You could see things falling off the shelf. Sometimes doors were opening and closing. Both situations can be easily explained if a breeze goes through the house and drops something or opens and closes the door. This stuff can happen. However when you start hearing footsteps on a squeaky floor and see no one is walking, thats when **** hits the fan. My parents called in an exorcist. This is when I explained to them my practices. The priest saw my ouija board and properly destroyed it. Since then, we never had any more strange things happen in the house.

Even to this day I still have not found what religion I truely believe in. However I do believe in some form of an after-world and a "Creator".

Gary V.

July 12th, 2007, 02:49 am

Yikes! That's some spooky stuff, Zedd.

Kalbrecht

July 12th, 2007, 02:59 am

And, I'm thankful to say, I disagree that how people remember you is all there is. If that's all there is, then I really don't care how people remember me, because life would be absolutely without any meaning at all.

Gary - I've gotta chip in and ask you to reassess that observation. I'm in complete agreement with Sno. The best thing you can do is make a positive impact and be someone who is remembered - this is a belief that can apply to religious, and non-religious people.

If you don't believe in heaven or are atheist, then your legacy - the memory that people have of you - is all that there is after you die. Life is pointless and meaningless without such a legacy - why make friends? Why have a family? Even if the "grand scheme" has no meaning - this does not mean that we, as humans in control of our destiny, can't give our lives meaning.

This legacy is not something BIG, like ambition, or a street named after you - it can be incredibly small, like a story, or a memory of how much you loved your family. Even though you have no idea/care/faith in what happens when you die - it does not mean you can't live on after death in some manner. If rememberance is all there is, then as the quote goes - make it an end worth remembering.

I think it was Jackie Robinson's epitaph which says: "A life is not worth living except in the impact it has on other's lives".

If you believe in heaven/afterlife - then you know that how people remember you ISN'T all there is. But that living a good life, making a positive impact on other people's lives is really trying to live by His word. Leading a good life by setting a good example is at the essence of religious morality. Regardless of all the centuries of ceremony - at their essence religions are trying to teach us how to be better people.

And if you're agnostic - then live a good life because, heck, it pays to play conservative in case there IS a heaven after you die! ;-)

The problems with many atheist fanatics is that they ignore any of the goodness that religion does at its base (by trying to teach us morality, and giving people hope) because they either despise the trappings of the church, or the scientific irrationality that they see in God.

On the flipside, the problem with religious fanatics is that they are so sanctimoniously, arrogantly, irrationally, CERTAIN that they are right, and everyone else has no idea.

Personal note: I'm a Buddhist. Born a Buddhist, tried a few other religions, came back after studying it more closely.

Tom Servo

July 12th, 2007, 06:07 pm

I just want to be forgotten.

And by posting here, I am making that a reality harder to achieve, I suppose.

Dr. Righteous

August 3rd, 2007, 01:39 pm

The universe is infinite in time and space. If you look at a single atom in your finger, you'll find a universe with galaxies and solar sytems within it and and planets with humanities in them. And this humanity has atom with universes and so forth. This is the infinitely small as represented by the triangle pointing down. If we look beyond our universe, we will see that we are part of an atom that is part of a solar system that in another universe and this universe is part of an atom and so forth. This is the infinitely large as represented by the triangle pointing up. The swirl within the Star of David repesents infinity of time. There is no beginning and no end. The universe has always existed and will always exists. And that's what the medallion in my avatar symbolizes. So knowing that, where would this "God" be located? The best description at this point about "God" is that it is infinity as described above. But this infinity has no intelligence and no consciousness. Therefore no "God". Eventually we will have the scientific knowledge to physically prove this.

Threads like this are always entertaining. The author tried to sound intellectual but his logic is always full of holes.
First off. "The universe is infinite in time and space."
It might be, but YOU my friend are finite. The finite explaining the infinite?
Be honest and say "My best guess is......" Because you would have to be infinite to explain the infinite. Guess is all you can do.
A question for you. What is the opposite of design? Chaos?
When you look into the sky at night do you see chaos? What is out there?
Solar systems? Clusters of stars? All governed by some type of system that dictates how they move, and what keeps them going. Well a system is the result of a design of some kind. And if the universe is governed by systems that were designed, and if the universe is infinite like you say then this designer must be infinite also. And since we have already established that this infinite person is not YOU then that leave some kind of supreme being. Umm, God?
Yes, Good answer.

Terry Penrod

August 12th, 2007, 04:47 pm

.

WITH PARAGRAPH BREAKS ADDED -

Threads like this are always entertaining. The author tried to sound intellectual but his logic is always full of holes.

First off. "The universe is infinite in time and space."

It might be, but YOU my friend are finite. The finite explaining the infinite?
Be honest and say "My best guess is......" Because you would have to be infinite to explain the infinite. Guess is all you can do.

A question for you. What is the opposite of design? Chaos?

When you look into the sky at night do you see chaos? What is out there?

Solar systems? Clusters of stars? All governed by some type of system that dictates how they move, and what keeps them going. Well a system is the result of a design of some kind. And if the universe is governed by systems that were designed, and if the universe is infinite like you say then this designer must be infinite also. And since we have already established that this infinite person is not YOU then that leave some kind of supreme being. Umm, God?

Yes, Good answer.

Good points all Dr. R., however, as a genuine agnostic I take the same idea of personal humilty one additional and IMO crucial step further.

On the issue of God's existence and any definition or description of him that we miniscule human beings could possibly conjure or understand, the ONLY truly honest answer is, "I do not know."

I may wish, ponder, guess, speculate, hypothesize and wonder about these things all my limited life. But it simply is not within my grasp to fathom the ultimate, universal truth using the tools I have as a mortal man with such a restricted view and incomplete knowledge of the cosmos.

Finally, I apply the exact same standard of self-assessment to every other human being that has ever lived. They all lacked the proper wisdom, experience, intelligence and perspective to "know" the final answers. Anyone who claims he or she does know with absolute certainty is either lying to you or sadly deluding themselves.

Cheers, Terry

Dr. Righteous

August 12th, 2007, 09:31 pm

.
Good points all Dr. R., however, as a genuine agnostic I take the same idea of personal humility one additional and IMO crucial step further.

On the issue of God's existence and any definition or description of him that we minuscule human beings could possibly conjure or understand, the ONLY truly honest answer is, "I do not know."

I may wish, ponder, guess, speculate, hypothesize and wonder about these things all my limited life. But it simply is not within my grasp to fathom the ultimate, universal truth using the tools I have as a mortal man with such a restricted view and incomplete knowledge of the cosmos.

Finally, I apply the exact same standard of self-assessment to every other human being that has ever lived. They all lacked the proper wisdom, experience, intelligence and perspective to "know" the final answers. Anyone who claims he or she does know with absolute certainty is either lying to you or sadly deluding themselves.

Cheers, Terry

You hit upon many good points. I appreciate frankness. There is nothing wrong with I don't know.
Ever notice how self proclaimed intellectuals will say "in the future we will have a greater scientific abilities and then we can prove my point."
But if you asked me to tell you if there was a God who governs the universe I could say with absolute certainty YES. Then you would say "show me the evidence" I would say "just look around you" . What I have shown you isn't the evidence you asked for but a declaration of FAITH.
YET I truly believe in God. The sheer beauty of this world built on mind boggling complexities. The workings of we have only scratched the surface. That is incontrovertible evidence if you ask me. There is too much on purposeful design in everything to be an accident.
But, you have to be honest if you look around and DON'T see the handiwork of a creator. That is just as much a faith also. Why? Again we are finite. We were not there at the beginning. So to say it was NOT made by God is placing faith in something also. And that is faith in nothingness.
So what is the difference? My world view is of the Christian faith. When my life expires on this earth it will only continue in the realm where I can finally see God face to face.
But when the faithful atheist life ends he hopes that life was just an illusion anyway and there is a black embrace of nothingness. Just like they never existed.
I don't know about you but I find my belief more reasonable not to mention comforting..

pcfreak

August 12th, 2007, 10:07 pm

I watched a documentary on End Timers last night and it was quite scary. These End Timers believe that every weird word of Revelation predicts real events. They say that any time now the world will end. And when it does, true believers in Christ will be whisked up to heaven in an event called The Rapture while non-believers are left behind on earth to face famine, war, terror and destruction as the forces of good and evil fight to the bitter end.

If this was confined to the personal beliefs of a few fundamentalists it would be of little significance but the leaders of the End Time movement are rich, well-connected and very powerful. Though the US constitution enshrines the separation of church and state End Timers are frequent visitors to the White House. No one knows if George W Bush is an End Timer himself, but his policies are at one with those of the evangelical Right and his language is often apocalyptic, such as when he describes the 'war on terror' as 'the epic struggle of good and evil'.

According to the prophecy, Jerusalem is where this final battle is to be played out. No stranger to conflict and violence, this city is the focus of End Timers' dreams of eternal paradise, because, according to their beliefs, this is where Christ will come back to earth. But first, they say, the Jews must return. End Timers believe that the establishment of the State of israel in 1948 was a fulfilment of the biblical prophecy and that since then 'the last days clock has been ticking'.

Many of them interpret the US government's policies on Israel and the Middle East from a biblical point of view. Before the war in Iraq, the USA supported a negotiated settlement in which Israel would return the Occupied Territories to the Palestinians. By 2004, after a torrent of criticism of the Roadmap to Peace, Bush's position had changed and now there is no call for a large-scale withdrawal from the West Bank.

End Timers parade through the streets of Jerusalem and take large amounts of cash to illegal West Bank settlements to encourage the residents to entrench themselves more deeply on this Palestinian land. In Jerusalem itself, Jews are being bankrolled by Christian fundamentalists to reside in Arab houses. The End Timers think that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon suffered a stroke ('was removed from the scene') because he wanted to give back some of the Palestinian land.

Many Israelis are very worried about the kind of 'support' they are being offered. One journalist said that this is not based on Israel's needs and that there is no support for peacemaking. On the contrary, the agenda of the Evangelicals is war, so as to fulfil violent prophecy of Revelation.

Provocatively, some End Timers have joined forces with a fundamentalist Jewish group who want to rebuild the Temple of Solomon – touching on the ancient Jewish yearning for their destroyed Temple. But the place where they plan to build it has deep meaning for the three Abrahamic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Temple Mount, where Islam's 3rd most holy site, Al-Aqsa Mosque, is situated, is the spot where Muslim, Jewish and Christian believers think that God created Adam, Abraham prepared his son Isaac to be sacrificed, and according to his vision, Muhammed was carried on a winged horse.

Mainstream Christians in the locality are appalled. They say attempts to rebuild the Temple are inflammatory and threaten to unleash even more bloodshed in the Middle East.

Could it be that this is precisely what they are trying to provoke, in order to hasten the end of days? According to End Timers, when the believers are whisked up to heaven those left behind will face the ultimate battle between good and evil. It will take seven years to count the dead, they say – the time of Tribulation, a hell on earth. Israel will survive, according to this story, but will have a sudden victory only after a long war. Some say this means nuclear war and they support the war in Iraq because they believe that will bring it closer. Megiddo is the Hebrew name for Armageddon: the town where this carnage will occur.

For some End Timers, all this is big – very big – business. Tim LaHaye's Christian fiction series, Left Behind, has sold 63 million books, and movies of the books have been made by Cloud Ten Pictures. The internet is awash with websites which tell you how to prepare for The Rapture, and there are American shops to sell you everything you need to survive (for around $3,000) if you're unfortunate enough to be left behind.

The concept of the Antichrist originated in Medieval times, and is not found in the Bible. Nevertheless these evangelical Christians believe that the Antichrist is 'walking among us right now', the incarnation of evil, luring people to his cause with false promises of peace. For End Timers, the United Nations, whose role is to seek and maintain peace across the world, fits this description perfectly.

Now End Time beliefs are now spreading to Africa, with dire consequences. Uganda's President, Yoweri Museveni, is a born again Christian who is lionised by American End Timers. An American preacher in the capital, Kampala, says that the answers to Uganda's problems are not political, economic or educational, but can be found in the Bible, which he describes as 'God's constitution for the planet'.

Newspaper editor Andrew Mwenda is appalled by these Doomsday preachers, who he believes are converting young people and diverting them from fulfilling their potential and pursuing their careers. He says: 'This country is on a highway to hell.'

Uganda was a model in Africa of AIDS education and prevention and the rate of infection was falling. Now Museveni is promoting abstinence rather than safer sex, the number of cases is rising.Teacher Julius Othieno describes children being taken out of school, and not taking medicine when they are ill, in order to hasten their death.

To me, these nutters should be seen for what they are, a dangerous cult!! That's my personal opinion and I am sticking to it!

Tom Servo

August 12th, 2007, 10:39 pm

Ever notice how self proclaimed intellectuals will say "in the future we will have a greater scientific abilities and then we can prove my point

No.

The sheer beauty of this world built on mind boggling complexities. The workings of we have only scratched the surface

Just because it boggles your mind doesn't mean it is 'incontrovertible evidence' that God exists/designed it. The engine in my dad's car is of such complexity that it boggles my mind, yet I don't believe that just because I don't know what it is that it is unknowable. I have no idea how Escher creates the designs in his artwork, and I have no idea how Bach composed some of his works either. These are works of beauty built upon mind-boggling complexities, and just because Einstein's Theory of Relatively is so complex doesn't mean I have to attribute it to God.

And I understand how the concept of Heaven is more comforting than that of Oblivion - but why is it more reasonable?

And who says Atheists think the world is an illusion? That's kind of the opposite of what an Atheist would think, really.

Oh, but keep making assumptions; I have faith that you can keep up the good work.

Terry Penrod

August 13th, 2007, 08:25 am

WITH PARAGRAPH BREAKS ADDED -

You hit upon many good points. I appreciate frankness. There is nothing wrong with I don't know.

Ever notice how self proclaimed intellectuals will say "in the future we will have a greater scientific abilities and then we can prove my point."

But if you asked me to tell you if there was a God who governs the universe I could say with absolute certainty YES. Then you would say "show me the evidence" I would say "just look around you" . What I have shown you isn't the evidence you asked for but a declaration of FAITH.

YET I truly believe in God. The sheer beauty of this world built on mind boggling complexities. The workings of we have only scratched the surface. That is incontrovertible evidence if you ask me. There is too much on purposeful design in everything to be an accident.

But, you have to be honest if you look around and DON'T see the handiwork of a creator. That is just as much a faith also. Why? Again we are finite. We were not there at the beginning. So to say it was NOT made by God is placing faith in something also. And that is faith in nothingness.

So what is the difference? My world view is of the Christian faith. When my life expires on this earth it will only continue in the realm where I can finally see God face to face.

But when the faithful atheist life ends he hopes that life was just an illusion anyway and there is a black embrace of nothingness. Just like they never existed.

I don't know about you but I find my belief more reasonable not to mention comforting..

Not more reasonable at all and to me, adopting a belief of such magnitude based on comfort level is in a word, discomforting.

Now, regarding the sometimes subtle, frequently deceptive and always misguided implication that agnostics are in any way associated more with atheists than theists, that is a total falsehood. Neither polar belief can be proven with any degree of certainty. Both are based on massive assumptions that serve the peculiar psychology of the individuals embracing them.

When you simply do not "know" (people REALLY need to use that word more prudently) the answer to a question, admitting so is the ONLY 100% truthful response. Leaping to a conclusion because you feel compelled to provide a more complete answer - for whatever reason - is dishonest.

As for the possibility of an afterlife, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it exists or does not exist. It is the product of pure speculation, wishful thinking and to a very large degree, an ongoing campaign of intimidation and fear designed by those who profit most from organized, uniform religious groupthink. That mission is in turn carried out by weaker minds that have fallen for their ever-so-clever con. Debating the "rules" of such a charade is beyond ridiculous. It is ludicrous.

Cheers, Terry

Dr. Righteous

August 13th, 2007, 10:14 am

Not more reasonable at all and to me, adopting a belief of such magnitude based on comfort level is in a word, discomforting.

Ahh. Now, be honest. Why do you subscribe to what you believe? Isn't it for comfort. Because why would you believe something if it made you uncomfortable? And if you didn't know, the Christian belief is anything BUT comfortable. It is a HARD thing to be a devout Christian. Simply put, being a Christian isn't about you. In fact a Christian life is a life of service to others. Every heard of Christian missionaries getting murdered by the native people they seek to share the gospel with? Do you think they are just zealous idiots that put themselves in harms way? How are they different than soldiers on the front lines?
[QUOTE=Terry Penrod]
Now, regarding the sometimes subtle, frequently deceptive and always misguided implication that agnostics are in any way associated more with atheists than theists, that is a total falsehood. Neither polar belief can be proven with any degree of certainty. Both are based on massive assumptions that serve the peculiar psychology of the individuals embracing them.

When you simply do not "know" (people REALLY need to use that word more prudently) the answer to a question, admitting so is the ONLY 100% truthful response. Leaping to a conclusion because you feel compelled to provide a more complete answer - for whatever reason - is dishonest.

You should really look up some times. You will bump your head less often.
If you missed it, my last post was concerning faith. I will not argue that believing in something that I cannot see, touch, hear, or smell is a matter of faith. And to claim that someone of faith has found a "crutch" to lean upon is not being a bit honest. Everyone puts their faith in something or someone.
But the rub is this, faith is essential. And when someone has faith in something greater than themselves that are admitting they are not captains of destiny. But rather, life is in the hands of the Almighty. You see that is not EASY to believe.

As for the possibility of an afterlife, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it exists or does not exist. It is the product of pure speculation, wishful thinking and to a very large degree, an ongoing campaign of intimidation and fear designed by those who profit most from organized, uniform religious groupthink. That mission is in turn carried out by weaker minds that have fallen for their ever-so-clever con. Debating the "rules" of such a charade is beyond ridiculous. It is ludicrous.

Cheers, Terry

Ahhhh, now we come down to it. The great evil Organized Religion.
Have I quoted the Bible here? No. I have mentioned my Christian faith for the sake of making clear what kind of faith it was. Here again, lets look at what is opposite. What is the opposite of an afterlife? Nothingness. Would you disagree? And if an afterlife is a product of "pure speculation" then so nothingness as one's end. And if the believe in an afterlife is the result of a "campaign" I would have to point out so is the opposite.
Which are you campaigning for? Let me ask you this Terry; what are you hungry for? What is Right? The Truth of matter? To tear aside the vale and expose what is hidden? If you can honestly say yes to these then you will not turn aside from the challenge of learning about God. And if you do will be amazed at what you discover. I will give you a clue. There IS a conspiracy. YES, there is a powerful movement to deceive as many people as possible. You better find out if you are being deceived or not.

Terry Penrod

August 13th, 2007, 12:05 pm

.

WITH PARAGRAPH BREAKS ADDED -

You should really look up some times. You will bump your head less often.

If you missed it, my last post was concerning faith. I will not argue that believing in something that I cannot see, touch, hear, or smell is a matter of faith. And to claim that someone of faith has found a "crutch" to lean upon is not being a bit honest. Everyone puts their faith in something or someone.

But the rub is this, faith is essential. And when someone has faith in something greater than themselves that are admitting they are not captains of destiny. But rather, life is in the hands of the Almighty. You see that is not EASY to believe.

Ahhhh, now we come down to it. The great evil Organized Religion.
Have I quoted the Bible here? No. I have mentioned my Christian faith for the sake of making clear what kind of faith it was. Here again, lets look at what is opposite. What is the opposite of an afterlife? Nothingness. Would you disagree? And if an afterlife is a product of "pure speculation" then so nothingness as one's end. And if the believe in an afterlife is the result of a "campaign" I would have to point out so is the opposite.

Which are you campaigning for? Let me ask you this Terry; what are you hungry for? What is Right? The Truth of matter? To tear aside the vale and expose what is hidden? If you can honestly say yes to these then you will not turn aside from the challenge of learning about God. And if you do will be amazed at what you discover. I will give you a clue. There IS a conspiracy. YES, there is a powerful movement to deceive as many people as possible. You better find out if you are being deceived or not.

Having raced offshore sailboats for several years, I spent a lot of time looking up at the stars. Never once though did anything I see convince me one way or the other that the universe was created by a single sentient being following a specific design or by the mighty forces of nature we are just now beginning to understand.

Reactions of cosmic proportion occur all the time. Planets spin and revolve around stars, as do electrons around the nucleus of a atom. New stars are born, old stars burn out. Giant asteroids collide with planets and matter is dispersed in all directions. Energy is created and consumed. Light emits then dies out. Gravity pulls. Magnetic fields expand and contract. Electrical energy sparks. Like charges repel. Combustion is spontaneous. Earth warms and cools.

As a natural result of natural forces, simple lifeforms emerged on this planet from (seemingly) nothing - but that of course is nonsense. They emerged from chemical reactions that occured under a very specific set of circumstances. They were then nurtured by heat, light, elemental gases, minerals and nutrients... all of which are perfectly natural components of the universe - all in abundant supply on earth.

Over eons of time, those rudimentary lifeforms evolved, spread, mutated, adapted, changed and improved. One or more of them eventually became us and given the vastness of the cosmos, similar species probably exist elsewhere - perhaps even right here in the Milky Way.

To speculate what series of invents, what forces, what purpose (if any) started this amazing chain reaction is IMO futile for we mortal men at this point in our evolution. Leaping to the ultimate conclusion (for lack of any real answer) that "God" created it all following a specific design is nothing more than a psychological defense mechanism geared to stave-off fear of the unkown, fear of the possibility that our lives may be finite - ending completely and totally when we die.

Now the question is, why are so many people utterly panic-stricken at the mere thought that death may be absolute and final? Why does that scare them so very much? We still live on through our children and through whatever accomplishments we make that may improve life for those who follow. We leave behind knowledge, ideas, values, doctrines, inventions, designs, artworks, and our own kids. Isn't that enough?

Perhaps we and all else in the universe are the product of a grand design and perhaps we aren't. To say you "know" the answer with absolute certainty is complete and utter hogwash. To say you "hope" one to be true is honest. I respect the latter and question the former - as any truly honest person should.

As a footnote - Nobody needs to believe in any god to fully understand and appreciate that he is but one tiny cog in a massive, intricate machine - that he alone is insignificant when compared to the greater universe and the awesome forces therein. Genuine humility comes from extending that realization to your intellect - to admit that, as a mere mortal human being with finite abilities, you are simply incapable of seeing the whole picture.

Cheers, Terry

.

pcfreak

August 13th, 2007, 12:55 pm

I personally think that religion can and has caused more problems than solved in our society. In Africa, preachers teach sexual abstinence as a method of safe sex and decry using condoms - result = contributary factor of current Aids epidemic. The Middle East is a hotbed of religious conflict, with the three major religions being involved (Christianity, Muslim and Judaism). In Ireland there was the Protestant and Catholic problems. These are all recent problems with religion, if you delve into the past similar problems have existed for hundreds (sometimes thousands) of years. What makes me laugh about it is they all believe in the same God, so why the hell are they fighting?

Another problem with religion is the fact that the tenets by which you must live are designed to control the believers in some way, shape or form. Take for example Catholicism, you are taught that sex before marraige is wrong, you are also taught that birth control is wrong. Homosexuality is also frowned upon. Why is that? All because some figure from a distant time declared it was God's word. What a load of old trout!! If there was a God, he would surely have to revise his rules to reflect modern living, so wheres the prophet?

I am not knocking people for having faith, if that's what they want to believe in then good luck. Personally, I respect them for doing so. But it's the hypocrisy of clerics,priests etc that gets my goat! They are that busy trying to tell others how to live their lives, they forget that they should be living by their own rules too! Take for example the recent scandals involving the priests who were found to be child molesters and the clerics here in the UK, who preached that all non believers of Islam should die. Then there's the TV evangilists who make millions from their 'preaching' (I thought greed was one of the deadly sins?).

Cheers,

Stuart

Terry Penrod

August 13th, 2007, 01:39 pm

.

As a further footnote to the above sidebar about religion and God -

Thinking outside the box is IMO a very healthy and necessary thing to do if one is to engage in an honest discourse about these topics.

To that end I suggest the folllowing -

If a single sentient being created all the universe, all matter, all natural forces and all lifeforms, why would it not also be possible for him or her to have made our lives finite?

If you break down the usual package presented by large, organized religious groups, you can examine the components separately. They are not in anyway interdependant UNLESS you prescribe to the complete bill of goods that a given church is selling.

Now let's take a closer look at those common components individually and with no obligation to accept any let alone all of them as the "gospel". We can call this "On-Demand Theology"

First and foremost we have a fundamental "belief" of (especially in these modern times) a single, sentient, ominpotent creator. It matters not what you call him or her or it, the entity a.k.a. God serves the same purpose and amounts to the same thing in all similar religions. Rather that repeat my agnostic feelings about this specific and very important element, I respectfully refer you to my above previous replies in this forum thread.

Second we have a belief in some form of eternal life after death or an afterlife. IMO this is the weakest part of most religious schools of thought as it is so self-serving and the motivation for adopting it is a so blatantly obvious. So let's stop kidding ourselves, admit we invented the idea to serve as an intellectual and emotional sedative, and dump it.

Third are the commandments or essential rules for living a good life that virtually every religious school carves into stone. These I mostly agree with as they are the product of honest thinking and they promote decency, tolerance, forgiveness, cooperation, charity and peace. These should in some form become common law and in most cases they already have. So churches now only help introduce and reinforce them - which IMO is still a valuable service to humanity. Let's definitely keep this function going and let's really push to support it broadly.

Fourth, there are the social, community and family apects of bonding people under a common cause that churches serve and again, this is a truly good and useful purpose. I vote this stays too - although many of the rituals are truly unneccesary IMO and in some cases they get in the way of teaching what needs to be taught. Nevertheless, if rituals make you happy, go for it.

Fifth and far from least is charitable work involving outreach programs that exceed the immediate boundaries of a church's congregation. As you might imagine, I am all for this effort in any form, any where, at any time. There's a lot of suffering in this world. Many people are very sad, lonely, sick, impaired and poverty stricken. Helping them as much as possible is simply the right thing to do whether you are a theist, agnostic or even an atheist. We are all still part of the human race and we all share in the responsibility for the well being of our fellow man.

I'll stop there even though many churches offer several other benefits. Those are to me the Big Five and I only take serious issue with one (the whole afterlife / living-forever-in-heaven-and-sending-all-others-straight-to-an-eternity-in-hell line of insipidly self-serving drivel).

Of the remaining four, I only take exception to the ATTITUDE of true believers who become fanatical about their religion. It is they who IMO ruin churches for everyone else and it always comes down to the exact same human flaws that drive them to it. It is greed, fear, envy, vanity and ignorance that turn them into close-minded zealots, pushy proselytizers and worse (far worse in some cases).

In summary, I feel that most churches do much more good than harm. But I also see that they tend to offer one and only one total belief package with little or no flexibility and many people like myself just don't need all the extra rituals, rules and pagentry in order to follow the same path of decency. A minority of us can also forego adopting a total belief in a grand creator and still be perfectly happy in life. That by the way is NOT an endorsement of agnosticism let alone atheism - nor is it intended to be a put down of theism. It's just what works for this independent agnostic.

So, where (other than the afterlife thing and a refusal to make a huge leap of faith in order to gain some personal comfort and attain a "heavenly insurance policy") do we agnostics differ from the majority of modern theists? Not at all really.

Cheers, Terry

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Dr. Righteous

August 13th, 2007, 03:55 pm

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Having raced offshore sailboats for several years, I spent a lot of time looking up at the stars. Never once though did anything I see convince me one way or the other that the universe was created by a single sentient being following a specific design or by the mighty forces of nature we are just now beginning to understand.
Reactions of cosmic proportion occur all the time. Planets spin and revolve around stars, as do electrons around the nucleus of a atom. New stars are born, old stars burn out. Giant asteroids collide with planets and matter is dispersed in all directions. Energy is created and consumed. Light emits then dies out. Gravity pulls. Magnetic fields expand and contract. Electrical energy sparks. Like charges repel. Combustion is spontaneous. Earth warms and cools.

Well, personally peering off at the stars wouldn't yield anything to me either.
Pretty lights in the night sky. But with the benefit of scientific knowledge we can "see" beyond our eyes. You attribute all this to a force of nature. I would agree. Gravitational pull, radiation in the form of heat and light, etc are very natural. But you stop there. I don't. I believe there is author of it all. A creative genius behind it. You believe it is unknowable. I don't. Here again is faith.

As a natural result of natural forces, simple lifeforms emerged on this planet from (seemingly) nothing - but that of course is nonsense. They emerged from chemical reactions that occurred under a very specific set of circumstances. They were then nurtured by heat, light, elemental gases, minerals and nutrients... all of which are perfectly natural components of the universe - all in abundant supply on earth.
Over eons of time, those rudimentary lifeforms evolved, spread, mutated, adapted, changed and improved. One or more of them eventually became us and given the vastness of the cosmos, similar species probably exist elsewhere - perhaps even right here in the Milky Way.

A great statement of faith. A faith built on unproven theories, and speculation. Unscientific theories based on conjecture about unobservable events. How is what I believe rendered invalid by that? It takes MORE faith on your to believe that than the faith I have in my beliefs.

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To speculate what series of events, what forces, what purpose (if any) started this amazing chain reaction is IMO futile for we mortal men at this point in our evolution. Leaping to the ultimate conclusion (for lack of any real answer) that "God" created it all following a specific design is nothing more than a psychological defense mechanism geared to stave-off fear of the unkown, fear of the possibility that our lives may be finite - ending completely and totally when we die.

I don't follow your reasoning here. Why do we delve into our origins? Why do we spend so much time and in heated debates about this? You consider this futile? It a key to the ultimate question. Why are we here?
One camp says it is an amazing "accident" and a chain of events that caused us to evolve.
The other said we are created by God in his image.
I don't see how my position is unreasonable. I see it as believing in something and the rest believing in nothing.

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Now the question is, why are so many people utterly panic-stricken at the mere thought that death may be absolute and final? Why does that scare them so very much? We still live on through our children and through whatever accomplishments we make that may improve life for those who follow. We leave behind knowledge, ideas, values, doctrines, inventions, designs, artworks, and our own kids. Isn't that enough?

Here what is appropriate is for me to quote the Bible.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.
Hebrews 9:27 (NIV)

Here you hope is in nothingness completely. If that is so, why care about life anyway. If you just disappear in the end it is like you never existed to begin with. All your worldly accomplishments amount to nothing. They didn't save you. Soon you will be forgotten completely. For you, the world just ended.
Is it so hard to consider that there MAY be something else to it?
Now don't get annoyed by my saying that you believe in nothingness. Think about it. If you don't believe there is ANYTHING beyond this life. A black embrace that will wipe away your being is what you hope for.
Isn't it all worth considering the alternative?
And consider for a moment, when you do pass through that portal to you shock you find out you were wrong. Instead of ceasing to exist you find you discover you have entered into the spiritual realm and await judgment.

Perhaps we and all else in the universe are the product of a grand design and perhaps we aren't. To say you "know" the answer with absolute certainty is complete and utter hogwash. To say you "hope" one to be true is honest. I respect the latter and question the former - as any truly honest person should.

It might be that we never agree here. I have to keep steering (or try to) back to my point about faith. I have faith in what I believe and so do you. But you will not recognize that you are a man of faith though not in the same things. Your belief system is built on articles of faith. Like Evolution for one.

As a footnote - Nobody needs to believe in any god to fully understand and appreciate that he is but one tiny cog in a massive, intricate machine - that he alone is insignificant when compared to the greater universe and the awesome forces therein. Genuine humility comes from extending that realization to your intellect - to admit that, as a mere mortal human being with finite abilities, you are simply incapable of seeing the whole picture.

Cheers, Terry

You can keep the 'cog in the machine'. If you like that, but I don't believe it for a second. And I will agree we cannot see the whole picture. BUT, by faith you get glimpse of things beyond what can be measured.
It all comes down to that.

Terry Penrod

August 13th, 2007, 04:19 pm

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I can sum up my response to your above reply in one very short, simple, honest sentence Dr. R.

You are correct, we will never agree.

Cheers, Terry

P.S. I have never stated what my beliefs are concerning the possible existence of God or an afterlife. I have simply stated that I don't know the answer - which is NOT the same as saying that you disbelief.

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Tom Servo

August 13th, 2007, 05:05 pm

When you simply do not "know" (people REALLY need to use that word more prudently)

Okay, Dak'kon!

It takes MORE faith on your to believe that than the faith I have in my beliefs.

Wait, so it takes more faith to believe in something with scientific backing and (not complete, but a degree) of evidence, observation and testing than it does to believe in something that has none of that? The belief in evolution requires little faith; micro evolution can be recreated in a laboratory, there is documentation of species changing over time and to suit their environment - if you believe in Intelligent Design or Creationism, that's okay; but admit that Evolution is the theory that requires the least 'faith'.

Finally, I'd like to point out that I am not debating on a spiritual level with you, but rather an intellectual level. I don't care what you believe, I just feel I have to debate because your points simply often aren't true; you never did reply to my previous post, btw.

I'll tell you, I don't believe I have faith in anything, and if I do, I will admit is irrational, and I will go to the line of reasoning that provides the most proof for me.

Terry Penrod

August 13th, 2007, 05:40 pm

Dr. Righteous

August 13th, 2007, 06:22 pm

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Forget it Tom. The Doctor "believes" he already has the ultimate answers to all of mankind's deepest, most perplexing questions and he "knows" this because, well... he says so.

Hey, I'll tell you what guys. I "believe" money grows on trees. After all, money exists, trees exist, paper comes from trees and money is made of paper - PLUS... I've never met anyone who can prove beyond all doubt the two are not biologically connected.

Of course those damned government mints you can actually see and touch don't help my argument very much and the truckloads of other tangible evidence supporting the "theory" that money is created using plain old printing presses is a bit of a stumper.

But I have FAITH that my belief is true and moreover, I insist that everyone everywhere automatically accept my belief on blind faith alone. If they refuse, then we money-tree fanatics will get all huffy and defensive. If we still don't get our way, we will dennounce, accuse, insult and belittle non-believers until they finally give-in. If any doubters remain, we'll just burn them at the stake, you know... like we always do.

Cheers, Terry

Actually I'm not a doctor. I'm a systems engineer.
The username is from a early '80s STYX album and not because I beat people over the head in message forums. I have used that as an online name probably since the mid 90s. If these posts were anything, it an attempt to get you to admit something. You won't do it. I think you cringe at the thought of it. We all have a belief system. We are all people of faith.
For some it is faith in God, others it is faith in themselves, some other it is faith in Government and maybe other it is the human intellect ultimately solving all mysteries.
And that in itself is not a spiritual discussion. But since you refuse to admit it, even after I point it out you here there can be no real discussion. I'm sure this will soon degenerate into name calling.

Terry Penrod

August 13th, 2007, 06:38 pm

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WITH PARAGRAPH BREAKS ADDED -

Actually I'm not a doctor. I'm a systems engineer.

The username is from a early '80s STYX album and not because I beat people over the head in message forums. I have used that as an online name probably since the mid 90s. If these posts were anything, it an attempt to get you to admit something. You won't do it. I think you cringe at the thought of it. We all have a belief system. We are all people of faith.
For some it is faith in God, others it is faith in themselves, some other it is faith in Government and maybe other it is the human intellect ultimately solving all mysteries.

And that in itself is not a spiritual discussion. But since you refuse to admit it, even after I point it out you here there can be no real discussion. I'm sure this will soon degenerate into name calling.

I haven't refused to admit anything pal and please don't flatter yourself. Nothing you have posted in this thread has come close to making me "cringe". If anything, I've found this whole exchange predictably trite, intellectually unstimulating and frankly up to now, a bit amusing.

Ironically, your last reply quoted above brings to life an example of the light sarcasm I posted in my last message to Tom. You have done exactly what I parodied in becoming huffy and defensive. You have also begun slinging insults and acting the injured party - which is no longer funny, just sad.

Cheers, Terry

Tom Servo

August 13th, 2007, 09:25 pm

I understand if you see nature in it's beauty as something planned by God; but what about when you see animals slaughtering and eating other animals, bacteria and viruses withering away at creatures, when someone you love dies slowly of natural diseases for no reason - is that still part of a design and a plan?

Nature isn't all harmonious remember. I have heard Theists (and I HAVE actually heard them say it, too) thank God when a loved one recovers from sickness etc; I have heard 'God must be watching out for them', which implies that everyone else who DID die, God wasn't looking out for. So when looking at God as the designer, look at him as the designer of flesh-eating bacteria, the bubonic plague and the collisions of stars wiping out entire solar systems as well as butterflies and sunsets.

Gary V.

August 13th, 2007, 11:38 pm

So does not believing in God mean you don't believe we have a soul? We're all just bags of meat. That's a depressing thought.

This won't be a popular statement, but I would be careful about trying to convince others there's not a God, because if any of you cause a person to lose faith, woe unto you. And like Terry said, we really don't know 100% for sure, do we?

Rafal Dudek

August 14th, 2007, 12:23 am

I wonder if Dr. R actually read the bible or is he preaching what the priest told him? :):

Terry Penrod

August 14th, 2007, 12:27 am

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So does not believing in God mean you don't believe we have a soul? We're all just bags of meat. That's a depressing thought.

This won't be a popular statement, but I would be careful about trying to convince others there's not a God, because if any of you cause a person to lose faith, woe unto you. And like Terry said, we really don't know 100% for sure, do we?

That really has been my only point Gary - to admit that I simply don't know the answer to these questions about God and the afterlife. That doesn't mean they don't exist and it certainly isn't intended to weaken anybody's faith.

But theists often become hyper defensive the second you mention the word agnostic. They quickly lump you in with atheists and make all sorts of ridiculous assumptions.

Then again, having already made such an astonishing leap of faith, what else would you expect from a true believer? A minor leap in logic pales by comparison to the galactic long jump from wondering / pondering / questioning how it all came to be to "I know with absolute certainty God exists and that I will go to heaven when I die. If you don't agree with me 100% you will be doomed to burn for all eternity in the firey pits of hell."

You must admit, THAT is REALLY annoying and worse, it is precisely how many theists pompously, self-righteously and often aggressively condescend to anyone who doesn't share their personal beliefs. Hey, I'm nobody's yes man and that includes the Pope.

Cheers, Terry

OldsterHolster

August 14th, 2007, 12:47 am

Hoo boy! I should know better than to talk religion, but just a couple quick thoughts. Could it be that everyone is right? Could the ultimate truth encompass all these varied beliefs and non-beliefs, and so much more that we are incapable of understanding?

Our best theorists have surmised that, before the "big bang," all matter and all energy in the Universe existed in an object about the size of a hen's egg. Could this be "God?" It would fit the belief that God is everything and offer hope that the Universe could, indeed, exist in a compact and harmonious state, somehow.

As to why a God would allow or cause this harmonious state to blast apart into almost infinite possibilities is a whole different discussion, but maybe he wants a prettier egg, or maybe a sphere when it all comes back together. Who knows?

I like the thought because it allows room for everything being a part of everything with the belief that it all can fit back into that perfect little egg, somehow; and the only rules seem to be the laws of physics that we are slowly learning. Maybe God is the laws of physics, and the egg is just a plaything.

Personally, I am so in awe of what science has discovered to date, that I shun all simplistic religious ideas of God. It's just got to be more complicated and yet simple on a scale we cannot even fathom. I believe in something, but I'm not sure exactly what it is; and I don't pay too much attention to anybody who adamently professes to know. Edward.

Terry Penrod

August 14th, 2007, 09:28 am

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You then are a certified agnostic Edward (a.k.a. a completely open minded person honestly seeking the truth about these ponderously disturbing questions but refusing to take the all-too convenient short cut called "religious faith" or the equally dead-end path called atheism).

Both are just that too - the ends of two very different but virtually parallel paths to an ultimate conclusion. The problem I see is that to reach either conclusion and fully adopt it as a solid belief, one must agree with himself to close his mind to all other possibilities from that point on.

What amazes me about "true believers" is the degree of smug self-righteousness, the sheer conceit they demonstrate when pontificating in such a condescending manner to anyone who dares question their idea of what God may or may not be - let alone the specific details they have adopted as gospel regarding the (promised) afterlife. These things are already set firmly in stone within their minds, inflexible and totally insulated from all outside forces.

That of course is the very defintion of a psychological defense mechanism, which when triggered by a perceived threat usually begets a very nasty reaction from the patient.

Religion has been called the opiate of the masses, which are generally considered (also falsely) as little more than sheep. But I have seen highly educated, successful, intelligent people reduced to babbling parrots when it comes to this particular issue. They embraced the seductive promise of instant peace of mind and bought an eternal insurance policy from one religious order or another that in essence guarantees them this benefit IF they simply agree to stop questioning and start obeying.

It would seem there is a rather ugly side effect though. That is the attitude of smug self-righteousness, a lofty feeling of superiority, along with this well-documented tendency to lash-out at anyone who might upset their delicate balance of a grand eternal delusion of an afterlife and the temporary internal security they enjoy while still here on the living plane of existence.

You must admit though, the sales pitch is an extraordinarily powerful one - perhaps the best ever invented as it has convinced countless otherwise intelligent people that - suddenly, magically and with virtually no price other than submission - they "know" all the answers to mankind's most perplexing questions AND now have a ticket to eternal bliss.

George Carlin calls it the best line of BS ever created and as a rather persuasive copywriter myself, I agree with him. The author deserves the all-time Gold Addy Award.

His punchline however only pokes fun at the mere mortals who buy into it hook, line and sinker. It does not address serious theological scholars be they theist, agnostic or atheist - nor does it pretend to offer counter explanations or alternative conclusions about the infinite cosmic possibilities we have just begun to explore. That is the greatest challenge of life - to fearlessly seek knowledge without bias and without any guarantee of success.

Cheers, Terry

RHooks

August 14th, 2007, 11:31 am

I always wonder why monkeys don't squeeze out the occasional human anymore. I guess that was a one time only thing.

Terry Penrod

August 14th, 2007, 12:11 pm

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I always wonder why monkeys don't squeeze out the occasional human anymore. I guess that was a one time only thing.

I sure hope that was at least an attempt at humor RHooks.

Otherwise, it shows a complete and total lack of understanding about how the Theory of Evolution works.

It is a very complex and subtle process that occurs over vast time spans as species adapt and mutate into yes, whole new species. The originals do NOT however all suddenly just disappear. (In case you didn't know, magic doesn't really exists - it's just make-believe). As a result of this process, there are then two or more distinct and different related species that subsequently continue to breed. Sometimes they even cross-breed. Eventually they evolve too because the universe is not static, conditions change and living organisms must adapt or die.

As I'm sure you are aware, a great deal of advanced genetic research has been conducted over the past several decades and we now have a much more comprehensive picture of the human genome as well as those of numerous other species - including monkeys. Archaeologists and paleontologists have also constructed a detailed fossil record that covers eons of time. Far from complete, it still clearly indicates that many early species died out but that others evolved into a wide variety of new lifeforms.

Counter to the simple-minded children's fairy tale of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, science actually examines tangible evidence, analyzes findings and constantly improves itself through rigid self-assessment. Religion ignores that little detail, basing all it's assumptions on a preconceived set of ideals. Facts are then altered to suit the existing agenda or discarded altogether because all of the "ultimate answers" and "universal truths" are already "known"... because, well... some guy in a robe said so.

Doesn't take a genius to understand just how silly most people are when they (despite having in most cases average or below average IQs) claim to "know" more than people who dwarf them in the intellectual department. Sadder still is how deluded they are about why scientists work so hard to explore, probe, question, test and retest. They are searching for a COMPLETE AND INTELLIGENT set of answers that will hold up under the most stringent scrutiny from the best minds humanity has to offer - including the wisest of those in the non-scientific community. All are welcome to look, poke, prod and question.

If in the course of conducting that expansive, ongoing search for the ACTUAL truth they discover undeniable, unbiased evidence of a single sentient being that may have created the universe and all the wonders therein, they will let us know. Until then, you, I and the rest of those with sub-200 IQs will just have to wait for real answers borne of honest effort, extraordinary patience, time-tested trial and the inevitable human errors that science uses to LEARN FROM.

There are no short-cuts to earned knowledge... only cop-outs, self-deceptions and lies.

Cheers, Terry

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Rafal Dudek

August 14th, 2007, 02:01 pm

(In case you didn't know, magic doesn't really exists - it's just make-believe)

If you mean in terms of shooting fireballs and lightning bolts, then yes, you are correct. However, after dealing with witchcraft for several years, I'll have to disagree with you on that one because of various stuff that happened, I listed an example in my previous replies.

It actually reinforced me belief that there is some form of creator(s). And after reading some bits of the bible is the reason why I think there is more than one, and it all goes back into ancient greece too. I have a feeling that our creator is a jealous one because if you follow the 10 commandments, he says not to believe in any other diety. Which leads me to believe that there is/was more than one creator and the current one either destroyed them or shunned them away from our world.

RHooks

August 14th, 2007, 02:05 pm

I don't recall posting anything remotely religious despite your pompous and amusing answer that has caused me no end of enjoyment. I'll ask again, why don't we get smarter chimps, smaller elephants, giraffes with shorter necks, etc...? The amounts of time you're talking about have apparently already elapsed for it to get us this far. Who said anything about species disappearing? Your intuition is almost Gaim-like to get so much hidden meaning out of a 21 word post.

Terry Penrod

August 14th, 2007, 02:17 pm

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If you mean in terms of shooting fireballs and lightning bolts, then yes, you are correct. However, after dealing with witchcraft for several years, I'll have to disagree with you on that one because of various stuff that happened, I listed an example in my previous replies.

It actually reinforced me belief that there is some form of creator(s). And after reading some bits of the bible is the reason why I think there is more than one, and it all goes back into ancient greece too. I have a feeling that our creator is a jealous one because if you follow the 10 commandments, he says not to believe in any other diety. Which leads me to believe that there is/was more than one creator and the current one either destroyed them or shunned them away from our world.

I'm a little too busy right now to search back through to find your previous reference to magic Zed. But as I've said a hundred times before, pretty much anything is possible and my mind remains wide open to the full spectrum of possibilities. Probabilty is another thing, as is hard, tangible proof that can withstand the harshest scrutiny and be verified by several reliable, unbiased third parties.

For instance, I believe that hypnosis exists. The power of suggestion is quite effective and people often mistake a variety of perceptions for reality. That aside, nature itself produces mindboggling displays of raw power and energy on a daily basis and we can only see a tiny fraction of the cosmos - through what are admittedly myopic, barely educated eyes.

So who's to say what may or may not exist in this vast universe or what untapped potentials we human beings may possess? Evolution impacts our intellects just as much as our bodies. Our senses are hardly operating at peak levels all the time and there may even be additional senses we haven't even dreamed of using / controlling yet.

In the future, perhaps man will ascend to a higher plane of existence. Maybe that's just called the afterlife. What we refer to as our soul may be something unlike anything we can possibly experience while still trapped in these fragile, mortal bodies. Who knows?

What I can tell you with a high degree of certainty and with total honesty is that I can not prove or disprove the existence of God as the supreme creator of everything. Whether I would prefer that he exists and is a benevolent being or not doesn't matter. I can't prove it, therefore I can not embrace it as an absolute truth and that is really all the term agnosticism means in relationship to this topic.

Cheers, Terry

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Terry Penrod

August 14th, 2007, 02:28 pm

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I don't recall posting anything remotely religious despite your pompous and amusing answer that has caused me no end of enjoyment. I'll ask again, why don't we get smarter chimps, smaller elephants, giraffes with shorter necks, etc...? The amounts of time you're talking about have apparently already elapsed for it to get us this far. Who said anything about species disappearing? Your intuition is almost Gaim-like to get so much hidden meaning out of a 21 word post.

I assume you are replying to me and no, my reference to your short, previous post began and ended in one even shorter opening sentence.

The rest was only applicable to you IF you truly weren't kidding and genuinely do not understand the basics of evolution theory.

None of that however was presumed one way or the other, which I thought was plainly obvious. If not, please accept my apologies and I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Cheers, Terry

OldsterHolster

August 14th, 2007, 08:04 pm

I took note of your post, Zedd, and I was fascinated by your impressions of what happened, or seemed to happened. I gripe about greed and the lust for power, all the time, but it's just built-in human nature to strive for power of all kinds; and supernatural power is the most desirable of all.

I think most people, including myself, would dearly love to be convinced that such power is real; but the sad fact is that it never seems provable. Like God's existance, the evidence is never conclusive, so a sensible person must harbor doubt, even if they might prefer to be convinced otherwise.

Objectivity can be almost a curse, sometimes, and it is decidedly easier to believe what is most comforting rather than the facts. I have a friend who is heavy into the Wicca (sp?) religion, and she is constantly fitting reality into what she wants to believe. Her friends, myself included, have learned to just not bother expressing our feelings when she constantly comes up with coincidental, or anecdotal, connections between reality and her unshakable belief that she knows why everything happens the way it does. I find it kind of sad, that she has this driving need on some level of her core being to "make sense of it all," rather than be satisfied with the "wonder of it all" and the chance of learning more about the unknown on the facts, alone.

Oh well, we're all only human; and everyone must do the best they can for themselves to deal with the heavy stuff. I really don't mind people who are deeply religious, so long as they have genuine tolerance for differing views. Evangelical fervor, however, is just common intolerance and supreme vanity in the guise of psuedo intellectual superiority, and I usually just exit the situation with my mouth kept shut. Who needs even more BS than the world dishes up all by itself. I guess you can understand why I'm a hermit. Edward.

Gary V.

August 14th, 2007, 09:47 pm

Terry, Edward, great posts and as always thoughtful.

It's probably clear that I'm struggling with some things, and I know that fear is the source. Fear of loss of my children and fear of losing all sense of self when I die. One day it occured to me that there just might not be a God, and it was the most horrible thought I have ever had. It's only a very small part of me that thinks this, but it's enough to bother me.

I asked a new coach on my staff if he believed in an afterlife. This man is bigger than life, the sort of guy you want on your side. He's a grizzled old warrior type, almost full-blooded German, about 6'3", big walrus mustache, and strong as an ox. He cusses non-stop and does like his beer. He looked squarely in my eyes and said "Hell yes, there's a God, so be ready." Not another word was said. The man helps anyone who needs it and is the hardest worker I've been around. I gotta say, he's the type of religious person I like. More guys like him would do the world a lotta good.

OldsterHolster

August 14th, 2007, 11:00 pm

As I said, earlier, I believe in something, I just don't understand exactly what it is; and I'm OK with that until more is understood. I like the thought that God is that little egg I mentioned: absolutely everything in existence. It follows that everything, every particle of matter, and every force, in the Universe is somehow connected. We know that all matter and energy is a constant. They can change into each other, but the sum total is always the same, and this total cannot be destroyed or changed.

In my mind, it's not an unreasonable leap to think that this is enough to believe that there is something beyond the death of our bodies. If everything is connected, then every thought we had, every action we took, and even our individuality, somehow plays into the big picture; and that is our immortality. It's humbling, to say the least, to think in terms of just how miniscule our individual lives might be; but it's better than believing in nothingness.

I also suspect that the limitation of life, and the built-in inability to "know it all" might just be the way it's supposed to be, by design, because "knowing it all" could only lead to insanity at our present stage of development. I don't think we are meant to know it all, and those who pretend to are not only irritating, but failing to fulfill their destiny to always look for more facts, more rules, more insight, etc. I'll admit I'm as confused as the next guy, but that might just be exactly the way I'm supposed to be.

In all honesty, I'd love to be proved wrong. Hell, the "rapture" sounds like fun, and a nice little finite "heaven" would sure make things simpler; but, until someone can show me some facts, I guess I'll just have to make the best of my confusion. Edward.

Nivizoit

August 18th, 2007, 12:01 am

im just curious...how is this ever going to be something proveable or not proveable? i mean i have my own convictions, but i wont ever be able to convince a non believer with words. or prove it for that matter. i do believe in evolution to a point, i dont think we can nail it down as much as anthropologists think they have, but i also think it's a natural process that happens on the earth. if energy is never created nor destroyed how'd it start to begin with. how did we start? and if you go with the evolution theory as to how we started, where'd the universe come from? the infinite is just incomprehensible to me sometimes...ok all the time.

Terry Penrod

August 18th, 2007, 07:29 am

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im just curious...how is this ever going to be something proveable or not proveable? i mean i have my own convictions, but i wont ever be able to convince a non believer with words. or prove it for that matter. i do believe in evolution to a point, i dont think we can nail it down as much as anthropologists think they have, but i also think it's a natural process that happens on the earth. if energy is never created nor destroyed how'd it start to begin with. how did we start? and if you go with the evolution theory as to how we started, where'd the universe come from? the infinite is just incomprehensible to me sometimes...ok all the time.

The following reply is not aimed at you Nivizoit. It's just a general reaction to your open-ended line of questions.

I've never understood why creationists can't reconcile the theory of evolution with their religious beliefs.

There is no conflict between natural evolution and the possibility that God created the universe and all the forces / processes therein.

Only if one takes an extremely simple-minded view of Genesis is there any reason to think that the two concepts can't coexist in the real world.

Nature is awesome. Lifeforms are constantly adapting / changing and we know that mutations occur all the time. That process is simply part of whatever grand scheme rules the universe and it has nothing to do with how or when the earliest signs of life on earth came into being.

What really amazes me is when rigid-thinking creationists attempt to "disprove" evolution theory by citing actual calendar dates and time periods so recent and so short that fossils or other geological evidence couldn't possibly have formed. These clueless losers sound like mentally challenged children incapable of grasping even the most elementary scientific principles. Worse is that their intellectual ineptitude is magnified tenfold by their exceedingly smug, self-righteous, insipidly condescending attitude.

IMO, the worst possible spokemen for theism are these fanatical pinheads who drone on and on about things they so obviously know nothing about. I honestly believe half of them are clinically insane and the other half are just plain idiots.

Now, having spent a great deal of time conversing with an astute Jesuit priest when I was a young man, I know that deeply religious people can also be highly educated and extraordinarilly intelligent. They can also maintain a very healthy balance between the theological and the practical. My friend for instance had an equally good grasp of science and Christianity. Moreover he saw no real conflict between the two (at least most of the time) and in particular thought the theory of evolution made perfect sense.

Why then can't more mullahs, ministers and priests instruct their flocks to trust their senses, use their powers of observation, employ rational thinking, embrace scientific study and still believe in a grand cosmic creator? Instead they preach fire and brimstone in the most simplistic terms, teach fairy tales as if they actually represented reality and encourage lesser minds to take a childishly stubborn, frankly boneheaded stance on a long list of critically important real-world issues.

I find the whole affair endlessly amusing yet tragic at the same time.

Cheers, Terry

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Nivizoit

August 18th, 2007, 12:02 pm

haha, well i wouldnt have felt aimed at even had you not said said it wasnt. um, good points, reasonable too.

i have wondered why the two ideas cant be reconciled myself. i almost majored in anthropology, until i realized i needed a PhD before i could start making at least some money.

never once did the theories they put forth hamper my faith in god. it might for those whose religions say one thing and science says another, like the date thing terry mentioned.

but i think there's too much evidence that supports adaptation/evolution.

IMO, the worst possible spokemen for theism are these fanatical pinheads who drone on and on about things they so obviously know nothing about. I honestly believe half of them are clinically insane and the other half are just plain idiots.

haha, i actually saw this in action once. my antro prof invited a creationist prof to explain his views and didn't make one supportable argument, the students were the ones refuting this 60 year old man's views. it was actually humerous, i didn't mention to anyone for a long time of my belief in god because he was embarrased so bad, even though his beliefs were quite different from mine.

Gary V.

August 18th, 2007, 03:01 pm

My family believes that God created everything in a scientific way, therefore we have no problem with evolution. I have a huge problem with religious people who claim the earth is only 6,000 years old. That makes us all look stupid.

Terry Penrod

August 18th, 2007, 04:03 pm

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My family believes that God created everything in a scientific way, therefore we have no problem with evolution. I have a huge problem with religious people who claim the earth is only 6,000 years old. That makes us all look stupid.

Well see Gary, that makes sense and it sounds as if you and your family have the same kind of level-headed balance my old Jesuit friend back at Georgetown University had.

I've known many intelligent people who firmly believe in God in the purest Christian sense. One of my best business clients is a huge supporter of his church. He's also a very talented engineer who owns and operates an extremely successful communications company. I also have a very close friend here in Houston with a degree in psychology from Rice University who is a devout Muslim. He calls his god Allah but readily acknowledges that he's referring to the very same omnipotent creator that Christians and Jews do when they say "God". None of those people have any problem at all with the basic premise of natural evolution and most of them are fully convinced that it's happening all around us all the time.

So who exactly are these narrow-minded people who keep getting their warped literalist views of anti-science / pro-creationism broadcast in the media so often? Why do they get so much ink instead of what I believe is a majority of theists who actually are rational, intelligent people?

Are they simply the proverbial squeaky wheel getting oiled by a commercially sensationalized media that would prefer to give them a platform and boost ratings rather than telling something remotely close to the "boring" non-controversial truth? I think so and as you say Gary, it does project the wrong impression of most believers.

Maybe it's time for the majority of sane, reasonable theists to stand up and be heard - to clearly distance themselves from the lunatic fringe.

Cheers, Terry