This is not America. This is not my home.

[Nyghtfall]

http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2004_09_05.html#001738

[Gary V.]

If this is what it takes to keep people, especially my daughters, from being blown to bits by terrorists, then so be it. Don't blame America, blame terrorists.

It's incredibly selfish for anyone to complain about a few inconveniences in the light of what we face. The terrorists will kill anyone, including children, given the chance. I have nothing to hide. Search me. The only people I want to kill are terrorists such as those who killed 300 children in Russia. Cowardly bastards.

[Jagndeke]

It is simply the reality of international travel today. While his experience maybe somewhat atypical, no one should be surprised by it and everyone who travels internationally should expect it. Otherwise... stay home!

[Nyghtfall]

If this is what it takes to keep people, especially my daughters, from being blown to bits by terrorists, then so be it.

Go through what he did and then tell me how you feel.

:rolleyes:

[O'C]

It's total BS. They stopped asking "Did you pack your own bags?" and the other routine questions about 2 years ago.

If this guy is leading off with claiming he was asked that then the rest is just garbage. Just someone looking for attention. And guess what, we gave it to him.

And even if it did happen, don't blame the US. This country was never like that until a bunch of madmen flew loaded jetliners into a few buildings.

On one particular post 9/11 trip to San Diego, I was pulled out of line on every segment of my trip to have by bags inspected. That was one flight outbound, and two flights on the way home. I wasn't thrilled at the time, but it is a situation we are being forced to live with.

[Gary V.]

I would rather someone get their feelings hurt than make it easier for terrorists. What do you suggest, Nyghtfall? Terrorists don't exactly wear big signs proclaiming who they are, so random searches of many innocent people are necessary.

Of course it's gonna piss anybody off at the time, because we know we aren't terrorists. But the police doesn't know who is and who isn't. It seems pretty obvious to me why they have to do this stuff.

[Ojnod]

Maybe he did look like someone they were looking for in particular. Identities can be easily faked if you are a criminal so they can't just go by what your passport says. If I was looking for someone and their identical twin just passed by I am sure I would stop them too. Obviosly this was no random search, and of course they can't tell him why they searched him. They don't know who this guy is, for all the airlines know he could be best friends with that person that they were looking for and this guy might go home and tell the criminal who is looking for him and where.

[Nyghtfall]

Your attitudes are f-ing pathetic, and a contributing reason why this country is in so much danger - not from terrorists, but from ourselves.

I'll tell you one thing for certain: the terrorists did succeed in one of their goals: they've helped create a nation run by fear, and turned us into a country that will willingly give up our freedoms and our rights.

And, yes, airlines do still ask you if you packed your own bags.

[Bruenor]

Your attitudes are f-ing pathetic, and a contributing reason why this country is in so much danger - not from terrorists, but from ourselves.

I'll tell you one thing for certain: the terrorists did succeed in one of their goals: they've helped create a nation run by fear, and turned us into a country that will willingly give up our freedoms and our rights.

And, yes, airlines do still ask you if you packed your own bags.

OK, so say I'm with you on this one so far.

Now, it's easy to say what they did, or airlines are doing, is wrong. The hard part is recommending a solution to stop the very real threat of terrorism. By not taking any steps to protect ourselves from terrorism through air travel and going back to pre-9/11 travel we are doing nothing but showing complete disregard to the close to 3,000 recorded deaths that occurred on 9/11.

So, if you give me a solution that is better than the current practice, that maintains the freedoms and liberties you wish to have, and at the same time, ensures some measure of protection against terrorists taking control of airplanes (or even using them under false identities) to land on American soil (or any country for that matter) to attack, or plan future attacks, then I will agree with you. As it stands right now, the system isn't perfect but apparently is the best measure of defense.

It's one thing to bitch about what you foresee as a problem, it's much more difficult to suggest a solution or alternative measure to that problem. I don't have one myself, and I understand the need for the measures, so I accept them for what they are and am thankful they are in place.

And yes you're right, in my experience on both sides of the border, airlines are still asking if you packed your own bags, have they been in your sight the whole time, etc.

[Jagndeke]

And yes you're right, in my experience on both sides of the border, airlines are still asking if you packed your own bags, have they been in your sight the whole time, etc.

They only ask at the desk when you pick up your boarding pass. If you use the automated kiosks to check in (which more and more people including myself do these days) then no one asks you. Of the many, many times I've flown since 911 no one ever asked me that question going through security. That's the reason you will now here the question about baggage blasted over the airport speaker system publicly every 5 minutes.

I agree that the whole security issue sucks. But speaking as someone who flies 2 to 4 times a month, I'm glad they do it because I know my odds of getting home to see my loving family are greatly improved. It sucks given what terrorism has forced us to do to ourselves, but I expect to be able to travel in a reasonably safe environment and if this type of security is what it takes to assure my safe passage home, then so be it. I personally want to live so I really don't give a rat's ass about someone's inconvenience.

They'll just have to deal with the odd powertripping security person on a case by case basis.

[Gary V.]

Your attitude is the one that's pathetic, Nyght. I'm glad you're not in charge of our security. Civil rights or life? I think I'll give up a few liberties to ensure the welfare of my family and others. You are incredibly selfish. In addition, if the Muslims want to stop being singled out, then they need to root out the radicals in their community and deal with them. I guarantee they could put a stop to this terrorism if they wanted to.

[Lou Cypher]

Calling people "f-ing pathetic" just because they disagree with you is pretty sad Nyght. I'm sorry we all can't agree with you just to make yourself feel better, but it can't always be that way.

Lou :globe:

[Nyghtfall]

I think I'll give up a few liberties to ensure the welfare of my family and others.

And that's how we become a fascist country; but that's no big deal, right?

:rolleyes:

You are incredibly selfish.

Damn right I am. So should you be.

[Nyghtfall]

Calling people "f-ing pathetic" just because they disagree with you is pretty sad Nyght.

I didn't say you people are pathetic. I said your attitudes are.

[Gaim Mastr]

I don't think that ANYONE should be judging the whole story of what did and/or didn't happen to this person based solely on a single unsubstantiated article by the supposed victim.

As the wise old saying goes, don't believe everything you read.

And the whole issue of if they ask about bag is moot. Airport security is still a mess. You'll have to remove your shoes at one terminal while being able to cruise through another with electronics unchecked.


Did racial profiling have anything to do with this guy's story ??

Probably, since he mentioned a "pink man". I for one fully support racial profiling. This policy of randomly picking people out to check is a waste of time and opportunity. Fact is that the US and other countries are under the greatest threat of terrorists of Mid-Eastern race. I didn't make that up. I didn't force that to be a fact. It simply is.

If this person's story is true, then the requests for verification of where he stayed on for how long denote a measure of suspicion about him that exceeded that of other passengers.

I do NOT agree with the seemingly carte blanc authority that so many law enforcement and security agencies now have, which does not require any provable reasoning for abuse of their power.

But I DO agree that we need to take better measures to ensure the safety of the people.

Nyghtfall, you're probably most shocked because you recall a time when boarding a plane was no more troublesome than boarding a bus. People of our generation will likely have the hardest time adapting to these new necessities of security. I assure you, if you'd been living in Israel you'd still think that US airline security was a sad, weak, pathetic joke. But Israelis have been dealing with terrorism a lot longer than we have.


I will agree that America is in very real danger of becoming a fascist country and/or a police state. This is in large thanks to Bush and the Republican Party and those who will vote for him again out of fear, even if they claim that's not the reason.

[RHooks]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[RangerRick]

This 'incident' also did not happen here, but in what I assume is Greece, so, Nyghtfall, 'you' need to read articles correctly.
You're appearing to be the 'typical' liberal by pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

An apology seems to be in order here.

[Nyghtfall]

This 'incident' also did not happen here, but in what I assume is Greece...

EDIT: It did take place in Greece, but the airline was an American carrier. However, the fact that the incident took place in Greece is irrelevant.

Sorry, my bad.

In any event, defending our civil rights and liberties should be something that both conservatives and liberals alike would want to do. Standing up against a government that would turn this country into a fascist nation is the constitutional thing to do.

[O'C]

I'm no geography expert, but if he was trying to board a flight ENTERING the US, doesn't that imply he is was in a different country when the incident took place, as Rick said? Now I'm not sure who's reading what articles.

[Bruenor]

You avoided my question Nyghtfall.

What do you suggest? How do we protect innocent travellers, not to mention the potential civilians in potential targets, from Terrorists gaining access to airplanes?

Or is your solution just to let Terrorists have free reign on planes like they used to, because it's the only viable solution that fits into your agenda?

This is why I can't take this thread seriously. You can bitch and moan all you want, but as soon as someone asks you to propose a viable solution that protects people from potential terrorist attacks, yet maintains the freedoms and liberties that you believe are being violated, you start spewing out verbage like fascism and other such nonsense.

Oh, and BTW, an American Airline operating in another country like this case is under no obligation to follow American law or practices. They are obligated, however, to follow Greek law and people in that country are only gauranteed any rights and obligations afforded to them by that country's laws and constitution (if any). Unless your argument is that American laws, rights, freedoms and liberties should be extended to every country in the world (and thereby eliminating self-governance), this posting means very little.

[Nyghtfall]

You avoided my question Nyghtfall.

I avoided it because I don't have a solution to offer. I was shocked by the experience that Mr. Harris had gone through, and wanted to share it with everyone here.

Oh, and BTW, an American Airline operating in another country like this case is under no obligation to follow American law or practices.

Given the fact that reps for Delta first denied that any employee would ever do such a thing, and then insisting that it was all entirely routine, my understanding is that they are obligated to follow American law as long as they're working for an American carrier.

[RangerRick]

are[/b] obligated to follow American law as long as they're working for an American carrier.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

THEY are obligated to follow the rules and policies of the country. They are on that countries soil, NOT US soil. Therefore, they have to follow the guidelines set up there, not here.

Sorry Nyght, you're barking up the wrong tree here.

[Gaim Mastr]

It's true. If your company is going to do business, any business, in a different country, then you have absolutely no choice but to play by their rules. That's the international deal.

Delta may be based in America, but the terminal in question was not under American control.

It's like when Japanese cars are sold in America. Their American manufacturing plants and their autmotive specs must meet minimum American standards or they're shut down.

Seems to me this person (if his story is complete and true) has a problem with Greece, not America.

[Torsion]

I believe that the random searches of people does nothing to counter the threat of terrorism. I think the USA needs to create a new passport system that does not allow for forgery and deception. If they can do it with our national currency, I do not understand why they can not do it with an American passport. Not only would this eliminate the threat of terrorists or drug runners jumping in and out of the USA but it would ensure that all US citizens have easy and convenient access to flights both foreign and domestic.

Terrorists are obviously relevant, but so is our freedom as Americans. Where and when do we draw the line between our best interests for security and a complete structural rebuild of our rights and civil liberties? In this sense, I believe Nyghtfall has valid points. I am sad to see the Bush administeration using fear as the cornerstone of their entire campaign. Fear is an easy motivator, but not nessessarily the correct one. This is especially true when there are so many easy options that can preserve our freedoms while not opressing us with fear and doubt.

In my mind, the problem is not now. However, I do not like the path where our country is heading in the future, and the future is where we must look to ensure a better tomarrow. Even though the incident with the man took place under Greek authority, it still does not make it any less relevant. After all, is that what you want the USA to be like in the immediate future?

[SupaTroopa]

Actually I am not willing to give up ANY of my basic human rights or afforded civil liberties so many people died to protect, including my ancestors and relatives.

Hundreds die in car crashes every week, tens of thousands in this country are shot in the streets of this country every year, and more are killed in many other ways with no way of preventing it from happening beyond reasonable precautions and basic laws that apply.

If the scared, suburbanite knee-jerk reactionary republican types want to start riding that slippery slope of giving up liberties that don't affect them directly every day as it does others, then don't come crying to us when you grand daughter is being filmed going to the bathroom and humiliated in 10 years as a result.

Or when a person you know suddenly disappears from society altogether for years without a clue as to their whereabouts because of they tried to buy some pot over the phone from one of their friends and a new fed technology enabled by the patriot act allowed the feds to record it and imprison him under a too-generalized anti-terror law you supported 10 years prior...because they're viewed as a "threat to the safety of the public" due to their loose connections to a major dealer they know nothing about.

Don't think that could ever happen? No one could imagine a few arab guys could hop on a plane with box cutters and kill 3,000 people in a couple of hours either.

It's amazing to me that the NRA types won't budge and complain about their "civil liberties" when it comes to gun ownership, but are perfectly willing to give up their right to privacy and other things. I just don't understand the mentality, it simply reeks of short-sighted necks having no idea what they're talking about and believing everything some demi-god conservative moron tells them on the radio or TV.

People need to start waking the hell up and stop worshipping the moron Bush for one thing...sorry but being nice about it doesn't always work when you feel that strongly about things.

And Gary this is NOT aimed at you at all - I don't know you or know what your opinions are exactly - I simply oppose the PA and the people I live around that are the subject matter of my rant.

[DANNY_2007]

I BET THE FAMILIES OF 9/11 WISH THE AIRPORTS WOULD OF BEEN DOING THIS BACK THEN.

[NotSoFast]

It's amazing to me that the NRA types won't budge and complain about their "civil liberties" when it comes to gun ownership, but are perfectly willing to give up their right to privacy and other things.

Perhaps it has to do with a little thing I like to call the Constitution of the United States of America. I believe it does say that we have the right to keep and bear arms. Right or wrong?

No where does it say you have the freedom to fly on an airplane without being inconvenienced. Hell, I find it inconvenient to have a screaming baby sitting behind me, but guess what, inconveniences are a part of life.

What I can't understand is why some Democrats will try to take certain Amendments out of the Constitution and act like some other things are in it.

There is nothing that will EVER take firearms out of the hands of criminals. No laws, no amount of hand-wringing. Just ask our friends in Australia. They banned guns and home robberies sky-rocketed because the criminals still had guns and they knew no law-abiding citizens could protect themselves. What would abolishing the 2nd Amendment accomplish in the real world?

I'll tell you what. Go out and make a large sign with the message "My home contains no firearms!" and put it in your front yard. You'd never do it because you'd be the first target in your neighborhood if someone was looking for a home to rob.

I also can't understand how people that bitch and complain about how the system works never have any plausable answers to the problem. Why bitch about it if you don't have an inkling of an idea of how to improve things?

[NotSoFast]

I BET THE FAMILIES OF 9/11 WISH THE AIRPORTS WOULD OF BEEN DOING THIS BACK THEN.


You bet they do. You think the families of the 3,000 people killed that day bitch and complain about being searched when they fly now? Don't you think they would put up with a little "inconvenience" to have their husbands, wives, mothers, or fathers back at home that night?

[SupaTroopa]

Perhaps it has to do with a little thing I like to call the Constitution of the United States of America. I believe it does say that we have the right to keep and bear arms. Right or wrong?

No where does it say you have the freedom to fly on an airplane without being inconvenienced. Hell, I find it inconvenient to have a screaming baby sitting behind me, but guess what, inconveniences are a part of life.


You did not bother to read my entire post (I realize it had some typos).

Nowhere did I say anything about "inconveniences" on airlines...although I completely am against randomn searches as such as they simply don't help a thing. that was the original point and we've all gone way off subject.

The point of my post regards the Patriot Act and the loose survelliance, search and seizure and financial related laws enacted within it.

If you know anything about precedent or law or history, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I refuse to argue with people who don't understand law.

In fact I think every high school aged kid should have to take a media law or law history course to understand how precedents, and federal and state laws, and court rulings have affected our country over the years, and why the Patriot Act is so dangerous to the future of our country.

Scaling back the PA has a lot more to do with "protecting our freedoms" (as Dubya puts it) than wiping out a few thousands terrorists who are going to do whatever the hell they please eventually, to us, no matter what laws we put into place.

[Head_O_Punk]

Please explain the patriot act

[SnapDad]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

I think that says it all Rhooks.

[DanTheManPR]

Please explain the patriot act

In simple terms, it gives more authority to the police organizations. The controversy is that many think it gives too much authority.

[night]

hmm, well we know this is America, and you might live here, so this could be your home, but if you don't feel at home why don't you move to France, or Cuba?
another thing, airlines have a list of people, their pictures are next to the persons name, this guy most likely resembled one of them OR he mentioned visiting a lot of muslim countries, this could have also had something to do with it.

[Head_O_Punk]

ok well that really doesn't expalin it. does anybody have a link or anything like that, i'll just google it.

[Lou Cypher]

Um DANNY_2007, I don't know if anyone has told you but posting in all uppercase is considered yelling, it's bad manners.

Lou :globe:

[Gaim Mastr]

I think you should Google if you want to know more about the Patriot Act. It's best to read the articles and thought pieces of knowledgeable people who support it and those who abhor it.

[Glass_Hope]

You know, I had a really really long winded response to this thread...But somehow I just cant post it without flaming about 5people. Theres enough Mindless arguing on the internet...Lets just say I dissagree with Nyghtfall and Gaim. :fire: