American Beheaded

[Lou Cypher]

Very sad news out of Saudi Arabia, it's been reported that Paul Marshall has been beheaded. And again there is video of this crime.

News story (http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/333344|top|06-18-2004::13:49|reuters.html)

Lou :globe:

[Gaim Mastr]

In places like Saudi Arabia the government beheads its own citizens for being homosexual or speaking out against the more traditional Islamic religions. To see that some underground group in that country is also beheading people for anything that comes to their empty minds shouldn't be surprising at all.

If you're anything OTHER than a Muslim living and working in the Mid-East in this day and age, ya takes ya chances.

We can't expect the people of the Mid-East to pull their mentalities out of the Dark Ages without first demanding that their country's leaders enlighten themselves FIRST.

[RHooks]

So you're ok with that? The guy saw a chance to make a lot more money for himself and his family than he can in the States so he's somehow to blame? I'm not aware that any Saudis that come work in the States have to "take their chances" like that.

[Gaim Mastr]

So you're ok with that?
I'm not going to answer foolish questions like that one.


The guy saw a chance to make a lot more money for himself and his family than he can in the States so he's somehow to blame?

Yes, he does share some responsibility. You don't need to be a technician working on military helicopters in Saudi Arabia to know that the anti-Westerner climate in the region is about as bad as it's ever been.

When you knowingly, willfully walk into a known hostile and dangerous situation, and something hostile or dangerous happens to you, then yes, you DO have to share some of the responsibility.

[Terry Penrod]

.

Yes you do share some responsibility for foolishly placing yourself in extreme harm's way against all reason. But that aside and because I'm rushed right now, here was my gut reply to an identical post in another forum.

I feel physically ill about this and can not begin to express my anger in written words. If one of those disgusting sleazebags was here right now, well... I've got some VERY sharp butcher's knives in the kitchen and know how to use them. I also know MANY good cops and members of the military past and present who would gladly help me dispose of the evidence without so much as a trace.

Cheers, Terry

.

[RHooks]

You're aware that he had been living and working in Saudi for some time? Almost 10 years. At what point did he go from a guy living and working in a foreign country to one that was "willfully" putting himself in danger? Eight years ago? After 9/11? Last month?

[Gaim Mastr]

Since when does the timeline of his location matter ?? :wtf:
Are you suggesting that he didn't know ??
That because he'd been there for 10 years he somehow imagined himself totally immune the social and cultural strife all around him ??

If you want to pinpoint when the imaginary danger-scale reached an appropriately high mark, go search the archives of the State Department's website and look for issued warnings to Americans in that country and region.


I agree, Terry. These insane cultists who call themselves "al Quaeda" amount to nothing more than brainless, lowlife cowards of the worst order.

We know for a fact that they're brainless, because they think that kidnapping some people and murdering them will drive us out of the region.

We know for a fact that they're lowlifes, because they believe that they are the master race who knows the only true way to live and worship. Sound like some other group from the 30s & 40s ??

We know for a fact that they are cowards, because they go after civilians, hide in caves, cover their faces, and murder unarmed people in cold blood.

[RHooks]

What do you suppose the terrorists would have done if Mr. Johnson had left Saudi and returned to the US?

[Gaim Mastr]

You mean OTHER than not have kidnapped & murdered him ??

[RHooks]

Yes.

[Gaim Mastr]

If you have something to say, then say it. I'm not interested in bantering back and forth with what I perceive to be little questions that do not in any way counter my position that he was in some small way responsible for his predicament.

Was he fully aware of the dangers Westerners faced while living and working in Saudi Arabia ??

Yes

Did he knowingly and willfully decide to remain there for benefit of his employment ??

Yes

Was he forced to remain there ??

No, he was a civilian, not a member of the military.

Did he deserve what happened to him, or did he in any way bring it upon himself ??

No, probably not.

Was he still responsible, at least in part, for not heeding the dangers and leaving the area ??

Yes

[RHooks]

Ok. If he had left they would have grabbed someone else. If all Americans had left Saudi, they would have grabbed one in Europe, Jordan, or a host of other countries, even the US. You buy into the govenment rhetoric that this can in some way be controlled when in fact it is pretty much a random event as being the victim of any other violent crime is. I thought we were way past the days of blaming victims for the crimes committed against them. Do you also believe that a woman that dresses sexily is "asking for it" when she's assaulted? To suggest that this man was in any way responsible for what happened to him is reprehensible.

[Gaim Mastr]

I have no doubt that they would have grabbed someone else, if not him. And to what government rhetoric, which states that being kidnapped in Saudi Arabia is currently a controllable issue, are you referring, exactly? I recall no US propaganda which supports this wild accusation you've pulled out of your hat.

And just because I stand by my assertion that he did in fact hold some personal responsibility for putting himself in a higher-than-average dangerous situation, doesn't mean that I blame him for what happened. Those are YOUR words, not MINE !!

You've put words into my mouth and twisted what I've clearly stated. Then you except me to defend myself on things that I've never stated. It's a weak tactic of discussion and debate, also known as baiting someone. I don't play into such foolishness.

You want to add all kinds of outside scenarios and insert unfounded assumptions to what I'd stated, go for it. But until you can come up with something legitimate that counters what I've actually stated, not what you falsely imagine that I 'meant', I'm done with this topic.

[Chylde Roland]

My only thought on this whole situation is that they'll continue to grab and behaed people, no matter what the US does in this region. In my mind, they're zealots in the extreme, and monsters besides. I personally think they do this because they like doing it.

I'm just disgusted by what these bastards are doing, but I'm lost as to how they can be stopped, short of hunting them all down and killing them.

[Chylde Roland]

An addendum: Apparently western forces shot and killed the leader of this extremist group, and two of his cronies. The CBC is reporting this at least, here (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/18/world/saudi_hostage040618).


Abdulaziz al-Muqrin and two accomplices were said to have been shot dead as they tried to dispose of Johnson's body, according to television reports.
I really hope this is true.

[Chylde Roland]

More news (CNN) about the leaders of the group being killed:

Story here (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/18/saudi.kidnap/index.html).

[Gaim Mastr]

The extermination of those insects is great news indeed !!

More than 15,000 Saudi police officers searched the streets and houses of Riyadh, and the FBI sent a team of 20 specialists in hostage rescue, negotiation and profiling to help Saudi authorities.

A letter posted on Islamic websites from a man calling himself "The Believer" warned the kidnappers that Johnson was under Muslim protection and that his life must be spared.

This week, a group of Saudi clerics declared attacks on Westerners a grave sin.

I also find that to be very good news. Looks like the Saudi Princes have also found themselves on al-Qaeda's list. The more that these scumbags push their violence, the more that the people of the world, including Mid-Eastern Muslims, will want them exterminated.

[Lou Cypher]

Originally posted by Chylde Roland
My only thought on this whole situation is that they'll continue to grab and behaed people, no matter what the US does in this region. In my mind, they're zealots in the extreme, and monsters besides. I personally think they do this because they like doing it.I think it's more than "they do this because they like doing it", I think there goal is to effect U.S. policy through the U.S. public at large. In the last decade the U.S. as a whole has come down with "casualty aversion", in Somalia 19 servicemen are killed and we pull out because the public is outraged. In Balkens war we bomb from 20,000 feet and refuse to send in ground troops, all because of the fear of troop casualties. In Iraq we have lost less than 1,000 servicemen and the public is begining to get week kneed, even though this number of casualties is extremly low for a war that has lasted this long.
I believe Paul Marshall knew he was going to die, living in Saudi Arabia for 10 years he had to have heard and witnessed the rise of the anti american/western radical extremists, he wasn't living in a vacume.
And as far as the scum who killed him, they were going to kill him from the start, the demands they made were never going to be met, and they knew it.

Lou :globe:

[Kittie2]

Paul Marshall has been beheaded, I thought It was Paul Johnson

[Lou Cypher]

Paul Marshall has been beheaded, I thought It was Paul Johnson Yep, when I posted this I couldn't remember his name so I used the info from the news story I linked too, but it turned out they had it wrong.
I was wondering when someone was going to point that out :rolleyes:

Lou :globe: